No, I argue that Voss is NOT a leader of the Forsaken (and would need to be developed into one); while Nathanos was been a Forsaken leader FOR YEARS (and would merely need a PERSONAL incentive to change HOW he leads). A personal incentive he has not been given, because turning on a Queen he owes everything to SOLELY for the sake of a longstanding enemy is unlikely.
Nathanos already has a position of authority within the Forsaken, as well as has been a WILLING part of them since nearly their inception. Voss … as much as she is an amazing example of Forsaken Free Will … carries with her a LOT of the pitfalls Calia does (she’s an outsider being thrust into a leadership position). On a more Meta level I also cannot think of a more fitting symbol of the Forsaken’s obsessive fixation on their Queen than Nathanos; and should even HE turn on her, it would be an equally important symbol to their change of course. Voss in contrast carries almost no weight within the Forsaken, and thus her course means nothing to them.
The entire Horde is complicit in Teldrassil thanks to how Blizz wrote this story. Saurfang may not share blame for the Burning itself, but he did set the stage for it. The soldiers on the field also share in that blame. EVERY single Horde leader that merely looked the other way (for the sake of plot-convenience) is complicit in her act. There is no escaping that reality.
Bluntly, I don’t care if you care. I also would be deeply opposed to Nathanos taking over should he not have that “TURN” moment. However, Blizzard has handed my faction a crap sandwich with Teldrassil … it is going to be a part of my faction for the foreseeable future. If I start cherry picking what parts of that feces should stay and go … I’ll be here all day. And I am right … if EVEN Nathanos changes course (if he’s given the proper incentives to do so) … then the Forsaken as a people will follow his lead. Voss (no matter how much you like her) will not come with that same level of thematic sway over a people she’d be haphazardly put in charge of.
You’d be a minority voice amongst the NE fanbase it seems that says that. Because they are right, even IF much of the Horde didn’t have direct involvement with Teldrassil; their lack of opposition to it does make them complicit in the act to some degree (they are tolerant of it, there are few calls for opposition to it, because it would be inconvenient to the plot for them to).
And we are in agreement on not agreeing on Nathanos. I am a staunch functionalist when it comes to writing, and as far as I can tell the guy is the ONLY possible replacement for Sylvanas atm (and even that is ONLY under a VERY narrow, very unlikely, lifeline of him turning on her should she betray him and the Forsaken). There is potential in his concept as a leader under the right conditions. Voss is not ready … as much as I wish I were wrong, that is the truth.
Baine wasn’t even told the War of the Thorns was going to happen.
And I will argue against them on that as much as I would argue against you for anything I don’t agree with you on.
Hence my proposal of Battlefield: Ashenvale to fix this.
We’re not, really. Because you also argue about how the Forsaken have to change to better harmonize with the rest of the Horde’s themes.
That will not be the case if they are lead by the only person we have narratively written to carry through the order to burn Teldrassil, the very act that besmirched the rest of the Horde’s fantasy.
You don’t need to be there personally to share in the guilty.
If fact anyone who wasn’t there shares even more blame because they KNEW Teldrassil had happened and still decided to follow her.
Unlike the ones that may have followed Sylvanas and then suddenly be unable to stop it.
Its like witnessing a murder being unable to stop it vs knowing the murderer and deciding to him regardless.
The Horde may have had plausible deniability right after Tedlrassil but they made themselves complicit by following her afterwards.
Nathanos is sort of irrelevant to the whole Burning of Teldrassil. Yes, he was a field commander in the WoT; and yes he DID follow through with her orders (with a slight, still ambiguous hesitation) … however its not as if her orders wouldn’t have been carried out without him. That tree would have still burned, she would have just screamed directly at the siege engineers instead.
And as a note, I am one who argues that the Forsaken need to become something AT LEAST more compatible with AT LEAST the other Horde races; but I also ALWAYS preface that with “not at the TOTAL expense of their racial fantasy”. And, as far as I can tell while interacting with Nathanos … outside of his cultlike Sylvie worship, the guy actually does seem to work in a more compatible way with the other Horde races than Sylvie ever has.
He DOESN’T have private machinations of his own; he DOES seem to have at least SOME investment in the Forsaken’s future as a PEOPLE (his formation of the Human Forsaken Rangers a key example); and he’s a dick to everyone … he doesn’t play favorites with his dickishness (he is an equal opportunity offender). This latter point is VERY unlike Sylvanas who seems to play favorites even amongst her own Forsaken (note who her inner council is comprised of).
A Nathanos DISTANCED from Sylvanas does not conceptually ruin my objectives for the Forsaken going forward (mere further compatibility with the other HORDE races).
That doesn’t make sense.
We just destroyed the Zandalari.
The Horde is losing and they have committed multiple atrocities then.
If we were coming for Sylvanas first the Horde has displayed they are all equally and actively complicit no matter how much they may protest it.
There isn’t a single other non-Elf Forsaken than Nathanos in her entire inner council. The people she trusts THE MOST are largely those that do not include the majority of the people she leads (the Forsaken HUMANS).
And Jaina said to give them time to grieve. Then Jaina and Shaw came to save Baine. And now the Horde is working with Jaina in Nazjatar, despite her involvement at Dazar’alor.
And the rest of the Horde is being treated by the Alliance in game as not being complicit to the burning no matter how much that doesn’t make sense to you or how much you protest it.
Yeah … turns out that Sylvanas wanted Summermoon’s corpse for some reason; and the UNDEAD race (that ONLY propagates through the resurrection of the dead) isn’t all that worried about bringing people back from the dead. Also … WHY did it take what amounts to several months in universe for Sylvanas to FINALLY get around to retrieving Summermoon’s corpse? Why do it the middle of a Warzone? Couldn’t we have just picked up her body and moved it somewhere else before risking a prime and reviving her?
And yet we kill them at every engagement.
We just haven’t besieged any large capital cities since Lordaeron.
There is no logic behind your statements.
If you want to say “Because the writers said so” go ahead.
But don’t come in here and think you could spin logic into this mess.