The Horde would need to be portrayed in a position of power to be allowed the power to turn the other cheek. We’re too weak, far too weak, to even do what Blizzard had tasked of us in this expansion (without the Alliance getting handicapped like crazy to mcguffin it).
oh right, so weak that they can destroy a gigantic world tree with intercontinental catapults in seconds or so weak that just some blight is enough to turn the tide of a losing battle.
i don’t know man.
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We did that in Siege of Orgrimmar.
The Horde decided to repay that with War of Thorns.
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I dont think anyone really feels as if they are winning.
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Everytime I hear the Horde describe a loss they reference “Well we failed to kill so and so of your leaders!”
So its either total victory in the war or complete and utter loss.
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Catapults were stupid … We have a race of people who have been the masters of rocket propulsion for ages; yet … catapults. Gotta sell that classic Warcraft 3 style fantasy I suppose. Why else would all our tech and tactics in the WoT date back to friggen BC? As for Lordaeron … yeah … apparently all they needed was a single Malfurion to blow it away with a wift one wind (and a wave of trees) … nice to know years of dedicated research amounted to little more than a fart in the wind…
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Meh both factions are massively unhappy so i agree, but i betcha blizz is pretty happy with our 15 bucks a month just to wait and see this crap.
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Because they usually are.
We didn’t have any instances of Thrall ordering ruthless attacks on Alliance territories. Neither did Vol’jin (for the time that he had).
And when they did happen, insubordinate commanders were punished for it.
Which not only wasn’t ordered by Thrall or EVEN Garrosh whom both disproved of this cheap tactic, but Garrosh actually rebuked Blackscar for it and threatened to have him executed for besmirching the Hordes’ honor.
Atrocities that are ENTIRELY on Garrosh. It was HIS plan to bomb Theramoore and it was under HIS subjugation of Orgrimmar that Theramores’ citizens were tourtured and killed. Heck, he also tourtured and killed Darkspears as well and forced Orgrimmar’s citizenship to fight against their will.
Yes, unless you can list any crimes Thrall, Vol’jin, Lor’themar, or Baine have personally orchestrated against the Alliance that weren’t just instances of insubordination within their ranks. It really is 1 guys fault.
A decision I have vehemently and actively opposed since Legion because I knew $hit like this would happen, and there would be no coming back from it this time.
The fact that even you acknowledge that the Horde was supposed to be clean after the events of MoP is exactly what I’ve been saying for the past 2 years.
Idk about you, but that Warbringers cinematic definitely didn’t depict every soldier leaping to obey. In fact, even Nathanos hesitated at first, when she told him to green light it.
Idk, did we have the option to?
Yeah, we got civilians out of Lor’danel.
Saurfang sure as hell did, so did Baine, and so did Lor’themar.
I have no clue about their respective peoples because when do we ever get any sort of insight on the general populaces in this game?
For all we know, all Humans full-heartedly support Anduin’s pacifist agenda or all Draenei think Velen as unfit to lead during wartime. We’re never given any details on these things.
It most certainly is not, and you have little evidence to support this claim.
And where is this shown?
YESSSSS. I know I’m not destroying the ideals of the good Horde. I know Baine isn’t. I know Lor’themar isn’t.
It just takes one person to push the trigger/detonator.
Well that’s the beauty of this current narrative.
It does everything in it’s power to make the Horde out look like relapsing drug addicts and the Alliance to be the doctor that has to keep them sedated preventing further drug use.
What Horde leaders are unapologetic and self-righteous?!
Baine?
Saurfang?
Lor’themar?
Thrall?
You mean the filthy green slug and the paranoid undead control freak?
I know YOU don’t have a problem hating the Horde as constant antagonists, but the problem is I do, because I play the faction and know what it should be about and this ain’t it.
Yes, unless you take into account the writing team. Then there is more than one problem.
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You have to admit lorthemar saying most of your faction supporting sylvanas and half of the faction playerbase also supporting her makes you look pretty unapologetic and selfrighteous, it also makes it look like the remaining half of your faction doesnt give a damn about us and make us dumb as heck for trusting you guys to keep your faction in order, know this is the writers fault but this is how its portrayed.
I feel actually like a beaten up wife staying with an abusive husband for the sake of my child, so yea its a real problem if both of our factions feel pretty crappy rping the big disfuctional family.
I do not know how to reconcile this:
So in essense only one person is at fault and when it is not just some person it is some rogue element.
And yet we have both leaders and these rogue elements repeated constantly. Over and over.
He was not standing alone. He stood with the Horde.
Only after experimenting with the old gods did the Horde finally, out of pure self-interest distance themselves from him.
This is not a one man show no matter how hard you try. There is too much evidence to the contrary.
Instead of blaming me for reading the writing on the wall how about you complain to the writers?
Standing aside and supporting evil makes you just as evil.
Its like helping a murderer escape justice. You will also be liable for criminal charges.
And yet in the end they did. And they did it effectively. Very effectively.
Maybe they should have shown some defiance.
That is not true. I saw the quest linked here. He just says to question them and then RELEASE THEM. He doesn’t utter the word “rescue” or “help” even once.
That is not true either. All three joined Sylvanas.
Darkshore is a blighted ruin and you have all Horde races present destroying the land and torturing captives.
But I guess this is Sylvanas’ fault too? She mind control this savagery?
I have shown the evidence. Multiple times now.
Darkshore warfront and Tyrande ascension quest.
Yes to all of the above.
And yet you dismiss and deny all of Horde’s wrong doings. You justify them or minimize them.
Not speaking specifically about Teldrassil or Theramore either. Horde has plenty of blood on its hands not including even those two.
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Well, we know that Sylvanas still has the people’s trust despite everything. So either she has some incredible spin to drive up support or the Horde population will okay any action so long as it happens to anything in blue.
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I would say a lot of Ally players/posters have been disappointed with the entirety or almost the entirety of BFA.
Also what Horde City did the Alliance destroy? The Zandalari capital is still standing (This was the distinction Shaw put to Saurfang’s hypocrisy). Undercity was destroyed by Sylvanas in a (failed) gambit to kill Genn, Jaina, Alleria, and Anduin. The Alliance wanted to capture the city.
Is Sylvanas Horde? If so the Horde did destroy the Alliance fleet or did you not notice her sacrificing the remaining Horde fleet in a gambit to destroy the Alliance one by leading them into Azshara’s trap.
While there has been victories by the Alliance, the story remains unsatisfying because instead of delivering a payoff for having been put through the Teldrassil gameplay experience they keep throwing some sort of breadcrumb from else where and trying to make that seem like it matters.
They know what they need to do but for some reason they keep trying to find some alternative instead of following through. All this “throwing pasta at the wall to see if something will stick” is just feeding the faction bias claims and dragging this expansion down even further.
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The undercity was an alliance victory, you forced sylvanas’ hand to destroy it (sorry not sorry that IS an alliance victory, successful spy mission too). Raided the horde expansion capitol AND killed a horde leader who had an entire zone of development dedicated to him.
Dont believe that was planned. Either way, though the zandalari fleet was arguably the strongest in the world only to be one-shotted, after the horde was tricked away.
As it has been for the horde too. WoD the ‘orc’ expansion was cut short and were coming off of a primarily ally centered expansion, only to be the bad guys yet again.
Thats why I think they over did this expansion, there really isnt a way to make even 1/2 their players happy, unless they do some really wacky stuff like retconing.
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Undercity was not an Alliance victory. It was a draw at best. No objectives were successful as Sylvanas escaped and Undercity was not captured to be restored for Lorderon.
Rastakhan had his number called from the moment they debuted Talanji. It was amazing how telegraphed his death was. This is one of those breadcrumbs I was mentioning. “We are killing of Rastakhan anyway, just let the Alliance do it and call Teldrassil avenged.”
Much the same way they slapped a name on a Val’kyr and had Tyrande and Malfurion kill it like it was some big deal. The Alliance players kill off ten of them in the Andorhal quest chain and this one was just a spare by all accounts so it didn’t even cost Sylvanas her get out of jail free card.
Like I said they know what they need to do. All these attempts to weasel out isn’t helping this x-pac and this x-pac has enough problems else where that it didn’t need major story issues too.
It is a shame that they have bungled things this badly after Legion’s upturn.
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Then I could claim that Teldrasil, was a draw at best, the night elves put up such a fight we ended up needing to burn it instead.
You can claim that no objectives were achieved, but you guys stole the plans for an azerite weapon (sounds like an objective to me), AND there was a failed gambit after losing the undercity. The Horde for example, failed in killing malf, AND failed in taking darnassus.
Dosent really make a difference.
Killing a Val’kyr is still pretty BA.
I feel the same, legions story was pretty good I just wish the horde was more involved in it from 7.2 onward.
Makes me even more ticked that they killed Vol’jin (his death wasent even epic after 2 expansions of buildup) for this…
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The reason most people feel diffrent between UC and teld is presentation and loss. The alliance hot to struggle aginst the inevitable while the horde just kind of lost off screen. The burning of trld was more in story and out the loss of civilian lives the UC and maybe all of tristfal was evaced.
So all in all the alliance is shown and feels they lost more. There was no loss of forsaken civilian lives. There was no desperate struggle. The zone seemed to be handed over and UC defended just enough for the real trap.
The battle of UC was on paper snd military soeakung a victory but enotionslly it was hollow. It is so bad not even the forsaken seem to care there is no remember the undercity like there is with teld there is just a hey the alliance er on this battle we are equsl now right?
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You have to look at Teldrassil and UC in what was wanted to be achieved by either side.
For Horde, the primary objective of attacking Teldrassil was to strongarm the Alliance into a treaty. But since that failed (all because Sylvanas threw a tissy I might add) they had to fall back on a secondary objective, which was to deny the Alliance a port to ship Azerite to the Eastern Kingdoms. Remember it was only cropping up in Kalimdor at that point. They lost the primary but won the secondary.
For the Alliance, Undercity was to obviously kill or capture Sylvanas and bring this whole mess to a halt, as well as reclaim Lordaeron as a psuedo secondary objective. They failed on both. While neither won their primary, the Horde at least got something out of it, whereas the Alliance only had a pile of bodies to ship home that accomplished little.
Besides, no way Sylvanas was going to hand Lordaeron over to them anyway. You don’t move that much Blight and stuff it into every nook and cranny at the drop of a hat, even if it was all in the city. The Alliance didn’t force $hite at Lordaeron.
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Well, so much for mutually positive endings. Good try, OP.
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That is not at all true, he was alienating Horde leaders left and right since Cataclysm.
He killed Baine’s father.
He pushed Vol’jin out of Orgrimmar.
And he insulted Sylvanas during the Gilneas campaign.
The Horde finally decided to rebel after he made an attempt on Vol’jin’s life in 5.1.
I’m not blaming you for anything, I’ve been complaining about the writers for awhile now. In fact, I’ve taken several potshots at the writers in this discussion.
No it doesn’t, because once again by that logic Tyrande and Velen are just as guilty for the respective crimes of Azshara and the Eredar. Since they both stood by and did nothing while it was happening, and only stood against it when it was convenient for them.
See the problem with this logic yet? I mean, the fact that you have nothing for the characters I listed just proves my point.
Being unable to rebel against evil is not the same as standing by it.
I will not slay innocents. If they do not raise arms against us, we shall spare them.
Enter Lor’danel and capture any civilians you find there. They shall be questioned and then released.
No they didn’t, all 3 have most certainly self-reflected and toned down their aggression.
Saurfang got himself imprisoned for a patch and 1/2
Baine openly challenged her authority on several different occasions, eventually being arrested.
Lor’themar was hardly in this expansion up to 8.2, and he’s already declared his intention to side with Baine, Saurfang, and Thrall.
Idk what else you expected these characters to do at the time being, rebellions take a bit of time to set up.
She IS a banshee and MC is well within her ability…
I did not see Horde torturing civilians during the Tyrande ascension quest. You mean those ancients being blighted?
No they are not, you’ve still yet to show instances in which any of these characters have been “unapologetic” and “self-righteous”.
No, I dismiss and deny your baseless accusations that everyone in the Horde is simply guilty by association.
What crimes have I tried justifying? We haven’t discussed any actual crimes, we’ve discussed your irrational carpet blaming of all the Hordes characters for a war that only 1 character really wanted and crimes only 1 character orchestrated.
Didn’t realize we were discussing anything other than evil Warchief deeds
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To be honest it is a tall order at this point. You can’t pull off a satisfying ending for the Alliance without justice for Teldrassil. The Sylvanas fans won’t be satisfied unless she gets away with it. Those two are mutually exclusive.
Much like Cata did, BFA is going to wound this game in a way that will never heal.
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