It was supposed to be, but it was never followed up upon in a meaningful way, and has been whitewashed constantly. Vareesa and Jaina have never had to answer to it, which is because blizzard would have to admit they had the alliance do something that isn’t completely moral.
It’s a thing that has gotten worse with time, that random book in legion about sylvanas “planning something” was almost certainly added there to give Genn some legitimacy to attacking the forsaken, as was making Sylvanas burn Teldrassil first, and having her destroy undercity. As time has gone on, blizzard has become more and more unwilling to let the alliance be portrayed as anything less then Lawful Good overdrive, even when letting them do a little evil might be better for both stories.
Jaina avoids punishment for the purge as then they would have to admit Jaina, one of the biggest creators pet’s in wow (If you wan’t i can make a thread on this subject by itself) did something morally reprehensible. It’s the same reason why they have her call off the attack on Dazar’alor, to let the trolls grieve, despite it not making any sense at all.
Keep in mind that Jaina even after the destruction of Theramor was giving a speech of mutual cooperation but then the Sunreavers after creating the mana bomb procede and aid Garrosh in stealing the Divine Bell.
Of course anyone would snap and I stand by Jaina on that one. Aethas while not leading these events was guilty of omission by remaining silent about them. He says it himself that he thought to warn Jaina but at the end he chose to face her wrath rather than Garrosh.
As a leader of a big group if you find out some of your members are working on something that would jeopardize their name it’s up to you to work things out and he failed to do so. It was as easy as just coming clean and throw the traitor out of his organization and none of that would have happened.
He didn’t participate in the mass killing that you’re accusing him of, so this doesn’t change my point.
Because WE, the HORDE PLAYERS, DON’T deserve to suffer because of inept writers dragging us through the exact same narrative so soon after the last one under similar circumstances making us look like easily-manipulated, bloodthirsty, halfwits who are incapable of good, while the Alliance gets to continue laughing at us from their constant moral high ground from which people like you constantly see the need to remind us that you indeed have the moral high ground.
Like, WE GET IT! You’re good, and we’re evil, but you constantly treat it like it’s supposed to be this way and that Horde players are simply ignorant to their own factions’ identity and morality alignment. Even when there are people from both sides who acknowledge that this is not how the Horde is supposed to be. Especially after the events of MoP.
No I don’t, I constantly point out how all my characters are being portrayed as out of character as fictionally possible.
You’re telling me Saurfang, the guy who literally threatened to kill Garrosh himself if the latter were to lead the Horde on a path of pure villainy exactly as it is right now, is now not going to kill/attempt to kill Sylvanas for doing exactly that?
All the Horde leaders are acting out of character to enable this out of character story arc that makes no sense in a world in which MoP had already occurred.
As Illidan had pointed out, Velen relied much more on the light than he did on his own instincts, resulting in him making rather poor judgement calls on more than one occasion. And as we all know now, the Light isn’t as benevolent or wise as we once thought it was.
Why we would have to anwer when we already payed the price?
theramore was lost, it was fair that we gained dalaran (and is lost again already)
point being, we already payed for any “morally gray” actions with more bigger consequences. or just look at teldrassil. the imbalance of “moral” is gigantic. that’s not a “creators pet” that is blizzard doing dumb faction war.
this is just blizzard being dumb again, the thing that you mentioned could have been fixed if actually this time the alliance were the agressors in this war, but they instead doubled it down all existing problems.
Blizzard once said that azeroth isn’t exactly a “just world”.
We didn’t have justice for theramore.
You are not getting “justice” for the purge because we already payed for it.
but that is more a direct consequences of making the horde the villains.
But here is the thing, blizzard will NOT let us have the revenge we want on the horde,so why would have to be even more punished when we alredy were?
Well, I think Genn is the most likely to kick the bucket this expansion out of any Alliance leaders (likely with him sacrificing himself for Anduin, since he’s been portraying him as a surrogate for Liam). But, it should be fine, he’s got like THREE replacements ready for him.
As for the whole “villain” thing … its hard not to notice part of the reason WHY this is the case. True, Blizzard does seem VERY unwilling to tarnish the spotless image of the Alliance. However, I think it also boils down to more WHY the writers seem to “like writing the Horde”. The Horde is treated as a plot device, not really a faction (but they sure as hell give lip service instead). It is used as an ACTIVE force to push whatever hairbrained narrative Blizzard wishes to tell (in this case, whatever Sylvie has planned) … and it seems little consideration is given to the Red Team beyond that. The Blue Team then is the REACTIONARY force in the story, and as a result of that role a WHOLE lot more of their actions feel justified (as they are merely reacting to the Horde’s actions).
It sucks … for both sides. The Horde is constantly unjustified in their acts, while the Alliance lacks even the illusion of agency. The Horde really is the abused kid, beaten whenever their parent drinks too much; The Alliance is the neglected kid, locked in the closet and forgotten when that drunken parent passes out. Both kids think the other has it better, but in reality they both have it pretty bad.
weird, i feel like is the same opposite, did you take a look to teldrassil? after the burning we had CGI cinematic of the ORC RESPONSIBLE FOR IT being the protagonist with no a single sign of the actual VICTIMS.
So that tells me that the nelfs suffering was only a plot device to the horde identity crisis while we, alliance players should just shut up and enjoy it.
look at dazarlazor, one of the few times the alliance being proactive, outmanuvering the horde was all about having a new raid tier on a horde capital
and using that as fuel to make the zandalari join the horde.
That is why the alliance attacked.
not because it was about getting us some vengeance on someone who wasn’t even horde during war of thorns.
Good, so now we can keep wishing for the horde to be deleted, like they deserve.
Aaaaand the reason I’m slowly shifting my opinions on the merits of a “Mostly” Red Kalimdor and a “Mostly” Blue EK strikes again. I once was ardently opposed to such a prospect (outside of brief thought process concept), but screw it … if we’re going to be the “villains” we might as well profit from it I suppose. If you can’t be right, you might as well win.
Blizz should just run off the Mantra of “Vengeance is a luxury not everyone can afford” and the NEs are routed by a combination of the Alliance getting their fleet gutted; the Horde refocusing their efforts to reinforce the territories they control now that the pressure is off from the seas; and the AU Mag’har FINALLY joining the fray (with their Ogre’s, Gronn, and Iron Horde tech).
I mean they are all “Breakers”, deliberately designed to combat extremely hostile plant life and nature magic by one of the titans. If they exist to combat the Botani on equal footing, they should be more than capable of smashing the NE lines if supported by the Laughing Skull; Shattered Hand; and Bleeding Hollow (who all culturally specialize in Guerrilla Warfare just like the NEs).
Did you notice that the Horde PC was not allowed to actually experience any of that themselves? My PC is actually having to us Meta Knowledge (in a pretty huge way) to justify my siding with Saurfang right now; because she did not get to experience the events that set him on his path).
Did you notice just how much Blizz (knowingly by all indications) is trampling all over the WC3 Horde Faction Identity? They knew EXACTLY what they were asking for the Horde to do (and honestly, the only thing keeping this story even tolerable for someone like me, that DOESN’T revel in the Sylvanas fantasy … is those cinematics).
Plus, the model they’re using for Saurfang is just a green clone of the one they use for Grom in the WoD intro cinematic. Different hair, but even the jewelry is identical (despite the two being from different clans). Seems Blizz cut costs by merely dusting off an old cinematic rig with Saurfang.
To be honest the majority of both Alliance and Horde are being used as plot divices to drive a story that appeals only a minorityof the player base them being Sylvanas evil followers and Alliance white knights.
The “Honor Horde” stuff is really shallow, its lip service. Notice how the “Honor Horde” was not an important factor in the WoT; the outcome of the Burning of Teldrassil; or even Lordaeron. The Honor Horde ceased to exist until it was convenient for them to finally turn on Sylvanas … which does suggest its not really important to whats going on in the story.
The whole Saurfang/Baine narrative is sort of just a placebo on a structural writing standpoint. Its supposed to give the illusion that the Honor Horde has relevance, but in reality it was only allowed to once it was convenient for whatever story they’re telling with Windrunner right now (it IS why they killed off Vol’jin in such a haphazard way … to set up her actions and activities in BfA).
The Honor Horde is no more important to this story than the Alliance tbh … we’re all victims of a single story revolving around a single character (and the narrative will bend over backwards to support that). She is like 95% likely to succeed in whatever the hell she’s doing, largely due to plot convenience protecting her (as what she’s doing will likely setup another expansion).
Sylvannas gave the order and she is the fricking War-Chief who’s ultimately responsbile. Lor’themar is an underling and wasn’t even on Kalimdor at the time.
But according to you, you can’t solve the issue anyway. So … can’t fix the problem, might as well own that reality and move the hell on right? Bluntly, while I do want them to get their lands back (because I want to give the Kaldorei Players that win) … I find the idea that the NEs could nearly SOLO take back their territories (with absolutely zero infrastructure remaining, and their populations decimated) absurd. Especially with what Red races they are facing Darkshore.
If the AU Mag’har ended up joining the Forsaken and Bilgewater in holding that Front (and note, these three races leaders are the ONLY ones still staunchly on team Sylvie atm) … I don’t care if the NEs have the Night Warrior (they shouldn’t be able to take back their territories). All three groups specialize in destroying natural terrain at an unprecedented level; and all three are more than willing to practice Scorched Earth tactics if they feel they can’t hold that territory.
If I’m supposed to be playing a villain according to you, I might as well own it … and honestly those three cultures should be more than willing to turn Darkshore into a new Dead Scar if they thought (even for a moment) they couldn’t keep it. It would protect the real prize in Ashenvale, and send a VERY dark message on what will happen if the NEs continue to try to push further inland (yeah, you can have your land back … or at least that lifeless husk we left for you).
People object to the Horde being called evil, you know this and are smart enough to know that people will see your calling the Horde evil will cause an argument.
I disagree on the notion that the Horde is evil. I acknowledge that we have too many dickish moments, moments that I heavily disagree with, but object to being called evil. And that is all I say on this since neither of us will be able to change our minds on the topic. It will just be an endless argument where we go back and forth and over all not very helpful.
She told them to leave, Aethas objected and got imprisoned. She then did everything in her power to make it so they couldn’t leave and unleashed Silver Covenant who vocally opposed them against them. And Blizzard has stated that it was minority of the Sunreavers working for Garrosh. Thus as far as many of them knew Jaina imprisoned their leader with no warning and gave permission for the anti-Blood Elf group within the city to take up arms against them.
When Rommath leads us into Dalaran there are Sunreavers who have no idea what is going on hiding in the sewers. We see a Silver Covenant agent gleefully feeding an innocent Sunreaver to a shark. The Purge of Dalaran is not black and white moment where the Alliance is all innocent and the Horde is evil.
Did Khadgar approve? With the way he acted in WoD in cheerfully ignoring Jaina’s orders to not work with the Horde and having Magister Krelas (a blood elf) working with him I figure he didn’t. I always figured that he was simply out voted on the matter like how Jaina and Ansirem Runeweaver was when it came to allowing the Horde back into Dalaran in Legion.
We actually don’t have an official stance by Khadgar on the Purge of Dalaran. Or anyone in the Council actually…which makes things rather weird.
Prior to Legion it seemed that the Council were advisers to the Leader of the Kirin Tor based on how there wasn’t a vote and the suddenness of the Purge ensured that there wasn’t time for a vote. And then Legion has the council having the power to go against the leader of the Kirin Tor.
Per Word of God, " Aethas Sunreaver was intended to have a larger role in the bell’s heist, stumbling across the player after the deed was done, admonishing the Horde for using Kirin Tor resources in the war effort, then being threatened by an orc into saying nothing about it. With Garrosh’s wrath on one side and Jaina’s on another, Aethas would have to gamble on one of them, ultimately choosing to risk Jaina’s. After a conversation with Dave Kosak on the subject, Blizzard writer Sarah Pine stated that this scene actually was supposed to play out in the game, but was bugged."
And when you think about it makes logical sense for Aethas to gamble on Jaina’s wrath over Garrosh’s since Garrosh was rather murder happy and Jaina was more logical and reasonable. No one saw the Purge of Dalaran coming until Jaina called for it. She even took Varian by surprise by that stunt.
I always figured that Baine was simply going overboard in not being Garrosh. He knew that retaliation, striking back too vehemently, was something Garrosh would have approved of and decided nope can’t do that.
humm i guess that we can agree on that.
everything so far has been extremely convenient for this story even work.
oh i yes i do agree with this, for me blizzard just needed someone to make the belfs stay in the horde by making someone in the alliance act… lets say… out of character?
so basically it was just a plot device.
and that is why khadgar got completely clean on this, by making him divorce entirely of the ecuation.
that is why they called for a vote when it was convenient for the plot and needed dalaran neutral again, that means, neutral hub again.
(to be honest that deserve an entire different topic)
Hum… i think that i forgot about the main topic so for that i apology to verlius and i will try to not de-rail it again.
I mostly blaim Aethas for looking the other way and letting things happen but I also was mad at Varian for it.
He was having secret meetings with Lor’themar about taking the Blood Elves into the Alliance and he never thought for one moment to talk to Jaina about it? Seriously the one person in the entire Alliance that had the most common ground with them was left out of these negotiations. So typical Varian thinking he needed nobody. It’s basically the same thing that led to ALP madness. He was going to do the very same thing Tyrande was planning but he was stopped by Anduin who explain why it was a bad idea because of the Sha but then he hears about Tyrande and fails to explain it to her. No wonder she was all annoyed by him.