I mean, all Horde races, but of the ones listed mostly the Zandalari, and trolls in general.
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1000%, I am a big fan of the Alliance and I hate the dark irons being white washed.
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She was a dungeon boss all the way back in vanilla. So we actually had to take her down. Your problem seems to be with the fact that she had a redemption arc.
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Seems to be a common complaint when a female character gets a redemption arc in most media.
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It seems more like they’re upset there was no redemption arc, just someone who did some awful things being treated as if those awful things never happened. AKA, she’s an Alliance character.
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Hmm.
Where was the redemption arc?
I mean, I know we opened Cata with her there now in Ironforge, and she was supposedly all arrogant and snobby when she arrived. And she held the people in the city hostage for a bit, until Varian got talked out of killing her for her tyrannical shenanigans by Anduin.
Then Varian had a whole thing with her because no other dwarves wanted to trust her and the Dark Irons, but after they killed some trolls Varian was all “you dwarf people, you will regret it if you don’t trust the woman allied with people who once tried to summon Ragnaros!!” And suddenly she was good now.
And now, turns out, she was just handwave-y never that bad to begin with, because secretly her husband was always trying to do reforms, and here we are over a decade later and she’s only just now mentioning it.
So where was this redemption arc?
It was the Blood in the Snow scenario, wasn’t it?
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Like most things in wow, it isn’t shown in the game. It was shown in the novel and short stories the shattering and fire and iron, before the cata expansion. Both released before cata to explain why she is part of the council of three hammers.
Then she had more storylines in mist, more comics and books. then legion happens, more comics and books with her being center fold.
I mean, she has a lot of story and lore behind her. It just isn’t in the game. The game is so theme park that they don’t tell the story of warcraft in it.
If we just go by the game, gadgetzan wouldn’t be a mega city with drive bys and shoot outs happening and mages selling botched potions for a lot of gold.
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Except she was never allied with Ragnaros. And that has been the lore of the dark iron since…forever. That Ragnaros defeated their king and subjugated the Dark Irons. So a quick dive on this shows that Dargan was a “loyal” servant to Ragnaros, Chronicles changed but to be honest, this wasn’t too off of a change considering Ragnaros basically enslaved the dwarves.
We also have the short story. So Moira was at the very least already cooperating with the council if for no other reason then because she wanted to give her son a unified kingdom. Presumably because her own schemes backfire and maybe because she actually did end up learning a thing or two from the other council members.
Yeah that is not how that works. She was the legitimate queen of Ironforge.
Oh, I don’t know. Wrathion did far worse and he was allowed to step foot in Stormwind.
As someone who wanted nothing more then toss Moira into the lava of Ironforge for her part in Sky’ree’s death I can understand why people dislike her. However she did change, and as shown by the Man’ari even the worse of people in the world can change for the better.
I never said Moira was allied with Ragnaros. I said, as you kindly point out, that the Dark Irons were. And that they’re her people.
In Fire and Iron, Moira is literally trying to politically maneuver the Wildhammers into isolation to force the Bronzebeard/Ironforge dwarves into a position where they must accept the Dark Irons. I’d hardly point to that story as an example of Moira’s redemption arc. The only reason I didn’t briefly overview that bit too is because while it’s not redemption, it’s also not on the level of a city of hostages.
Again, in the former Varian was ready to merc her because she had locked Ironforge down and held the people hostage. And, as mentioned above, Fire and Iron has her still being schemer manipulative.
Mists is when Moira’s “redemption arc” suddenly just… Happened in a single scenario. She’s already someone Varian is vouching for, while the other dwarf leaders are ashamed for not being as helpful as her. Yeah, other stuff happened after that to reinforce her acceptance, but the end of that scenario makes it clear; she’s accepted, Dark Irons are cool now, and Varian thinks you should just accept them.
The other comics and books happen after this scenario. Moira’s entire redemption arc scenario.
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My mistake. Still, at that point the Alliance had allied with Night elves, you know the people who did once cause the Sundering and the draenei, a people who had those that joined the Legion. By comparison summoning Ragnaros(unintentionally I might add) is probably less of a blunder.
And now you are the one making the mistake. I wasn’t talking about that short. I was talking about Jade Hunters.
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That single scenario is important into why he started to trust her more. When the rest of the clans said nah, only her clan stepped up, mostly just for her to prove her worth. It did prove her wroth.
It didn’t just suddenly happen, you saw it happen. As a leader, once another leader offers aide towards you, you bite down any misgivings you have and try to be diplomatic.
And the only reason the other clans didn’t send troops to fight against the trolls was because the other 2 clans fear the dark iron would take over in their absence.
So, story wise, it worked out well and it fits. It wasn’t just out of nowhere. This was just her showing her father, once again, that she can look out for her own and her people and align with King Varian. It was part of her scheming but not all schemes are bad.
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Add to that you can’t even fault the other members. They were stuck in a prisoner’s dilemma with Moira and Moira decided to reach out to the one person who nearly killed her in a fit of rage.
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Aye, it all made sense story wise and politically wise. Face the frosttrolls and leave the city with the dark iron or not go help King Varian with the frost trolls to protect against the dark irons.
Turns out the dark irons with Moira leading them went and helped King Varian instead, cementing her place in the three kingdoms. Smart play.
Now what the other 2 clans going to say “nah, we can’t have them here, Varian, even if they helped you while we kept our soldiers here”.
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Except both of those incidents were, respectively, done by splinter groups well before human civilizations existed.
Summoning Ragnaros was fairly recent by comparison, and they were still largely serving him by the time of Classic.
Ah, my mistake. I didn’t think we’d be mentioning that, because by the time of Jade Hunters, Moira had largely gained acceptance among the Alliance. The redemption arc is effectively over, because she has already gained the endgoal; acceptance, if not forgiveness.
And that’s why I asked if the entirety of her redemption arc is covered by Blood and Snow. Which it clearly is.
Before it, nobody trusts her. Not the other dwarves, certainly not the man who planned to assassinate her just a year or so (in-universe) earlier, and she has done nothing to gain acceptance but scheme against her fellow dwarven leaders and had a brief foray into tyranny (as it is described in the book).
After it, she has gained acceptance from Varian and the other dwarf leaders. She and her bodyguards helped kill some trolls. All is forgiven.
So… Not sure why you and Zerde are both confirming my stance that the redemption arc was all in Blood and Snow, but seem to disagree with me?
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I didn’t read your other comment so I have no idea what you’re on about. Just stating her redemption arc didn’t just happen. It was building up to it.
This isn’t a Slyvanas/Jailer situation. There is an actual trail to her becoming part of the three hammers and her redemption arc.
I’m literally just talking about the comments you responded to?
Yes. It started at the beginning of Blood and Snow, and ended at the ending of Blood and Snow.
I agree. First she entered Ironforge and declared herself heir (which she is).
Then the Shattering happens and she has a light tyranny phase by locking down the city and making everyone a prisoner until Varian doesn’t assassinate her.
Then Fire and Iron happens where she tries to ice out the Wildhammers, hoping by isolating them politically it’ll force the Bronzebeard/Ironforge dwarves to rely on the Dark Irons.
Then Blood and Snow happens.
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Moira is a more interesting character before MoP imo. Daughter of the king, mother of the heir, and ruthless political schemes is a million times more exciting than Noble Alliance Priest-Hero #819.
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I don’t disagree but have you SEEN her failure of a son?
Never seen a character in more desperate need of a wedgie in my life.
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The dude who learns and offers help? Nah, he’s great
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How is it a redemption arc if the game is implicitly saying she and Dagran did nothing wrong because he totally was like right about to rebel against ragnaros and outlaw slavery in like five seconds he just had to get all his ducks in a row, but the meany misogynist Magni Bronzebeard totally ruined everything.
What’s she being redeemed from if the story is saying shes already right?