Mistweaver in m+

Classes Monk
1

So I think next season might be even harder for mist weavers in m+.

We don’t have a lot of knowledge yet but Blizzard has barely dialed back the things that have set the current meta by reducing tank buster damage by trash by like 25% in the current season. It also feels like they went most of the season giving monk small tuning buffs like 6% more damage, dance procs a little more often and does so more damage, and whatever else I’m forgetting. We got not only the worst healer tier set, quite possibly the worst tier set of the season, but maybe the worst tier set ever added to the game. The 2/4 adds what amounts to like 20k healing to renewing and so so to enveloping. Which is like non existent. The 4/4 extends the duration of those weak hots on a target by 3 seconds up to 3 seconds when we cast vivify on them.

I could explain all the reasons why this makes no sense and is terrible beyond all belief but the class guide says it best that taking the tier set into account for your decision making is a waste of mana.

Just for example evoker’s maintenance hot got a heal buff and when it heals it has a chance to give them a stack of of something that ime you basically always get minimal rng there. If your hot heals you’re gonna get it. And this stacks up to 4 times and every stack is basically a 10% haste and 10% healing buff to their empowered/charged abilities. So basically their dream breath and bloom (the big aoe heals they do like every 30 seconds that are core to their healing) get a 40% haste cast time and 40% healing bonus.

I could go over all the other tier sets but I’ll just stop there. Monk basically doesn’t even have a tier set. It’s also my opinion that our tier set looks p lame and like a reskin of the zaralek cavern plate armor (it probably is.)

We don’t have damage reductions for our allies, we don’t really have a lot of options with our healing cool downs, not having those feels way more punishing than a lot of other specs, or having them and not being able to keep melee up time feels terrible because it was wasted and you needed that healing like right now in the case of chichi, no battle res, no stealth, no rescue or grip, tigers lust is worse than freedom or anything else I can think of (better than nothing for sure but its more like a cleanse of a limited number of mobility inhibiting types rather than total immunity,)

mystic touch is nice…for raid…like existentially? but mark of the wild, devotion aura, power infusion, and anything else you want to throw in this category are just far better and more useful for keys. Cocoon is cool…I wish it gave dr or scaled better for content. 3.5 or so million absorb is basically nothing in a high key. We used to have a 5% avoidance aura, and that’s not much, not enough to replace a defensive really, but for some reason blizzard took that away.

It’s like actually, actually, actually, crazy how much more I have to heal as monk than my other toons, to pass the same heal check. And it requires such honed in precision and positioning that missing a single button of your rotation cause of the tons of area of denial or one shot things or tertiary mechanics are forcing you out of your very limited melee range, can snowball into so many problems or even deaths. If for whatever random reason you have to leave melee after popping chichi things could have potentially just got very stressful trying to figure out what defensives your allies have, what you can do mist weaving, how long to do that before going back into melee, time until the next chichi opportunity. Like if you don’t have chichi on 3rd boss of cot near end of second soak and everyone is varrying levels of messed up with a massive heal absorb on them and the pulse is about to happen and they have varying levels of defensives or self healing available. It kind of feels like there’s nothing you can really do besides go oom trying to keep everyone alive. I feel like on all my other healers there is somethings i can do. Not only to out heal the absorb but to heal everyone through the pulse. Probably even with lower hps or healing over all that fight just cause of damage mitigating options. And on some of those healers if someone dies I can bres them. As monk tho all you can do is pump heals and hope for the best.

And what i’ve read about what we know about 11.1 on wow head. That they’re nerfing the damage (and therefore healing) of teachings of the monestary bonus kicks, capping the opportunities for it to proc gust based on number of kicks rather than targets for damage/healing done to those targets/allies, and not really fixing or improving anything so far that we know of.

Why can’t monk have the avoidance buff or battle res or damage reduction or like anything? We are kind of just dps/heal bots and it seems like blizzard is (for some unknowable reason) looking to make even the experience of that worse.

I don’t get the ideas here. And the person in charge of mw spec or monk class design doesn’t seem to understand what is so fun about this spec let alone how to improve it beyond consolidating a few talents and removing essence font. Someone please explain to me why we lost our 5% avoidance aura? Why wasn’t it replaced with anything else to offer our party? If the only thing we’re even remotely good at is big healing parses on large trash packs why are you reducing the effectiveness and damage of that, adding more rng to it, and giving us the worst tier sets imaginable?

I doubt blizzard reads these kinds of posts honestly but whoever they’re getting these ideas from kind of feels like they actually hate monk or maybe like they just throw stuff into an ai and impliment 10% more healing to the worlds weakest hot. And make it longer by 3 seconds. And nerf the healing/damage of their rotation and try to makeup for it by making chichis more rng related.

I know this is a long post. I’ve tried typing this post so many times the past few days and always gave up. There is way too much I have to say after playing this toon daily for months since like 3 weeks into the season when I came back. I don’t think I could possibly describe every single thing. I haven’t been able to get unbound changeling and had so many useless vaults on top of all that. Then when i play on my other heal toons they have SOOOO many things. They do SOOOO many things. Ever just wanted to ignore mechanics or trivialize them? Make your party immortal with one button? Be immune to more than a slow or snare? Make others immune? Bres the tank? etc? Well monk can’t do it and the reason is unclear why. Need a lust? monk can’t do it. Need damage reduction? Monk cannot do it. What can monk do? We smack large trash pulls. So what does blizzard do about that? We’ll just nerf teachings of the monestary multi kick damage and healing and uncapped opportunity to proc gust.

???

Does anyone else get me???

2 Likes
2

Mistweaver is a lot of fun. Punching to heal is my cup of tea and it’s unlikely that any other healer will gain this feature.

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right but they are nerfing the damage of that, the cleave multistrike damage, and the opportunities for the cleave damage to do more healing from mastery stat/gusts and during chichi window. They’re essentially capping it next season while also lowering the overall damage and therefore healing it does.

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It’s my understanding that black out kick got buffed so they nerfed the talents and they’re making changes to make spinning crane kick viable.

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There’s posts about this on peaks of serenity discord. Essentially, blackout kick is a net neutral change at max targets and a huge buff at single target. Same with the jade empowerment change.

11.1 is going to be a HUGE buff for monks. Mistweaver is gonna wind up being an amazing healer in both single target and cleave content.

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Changes are meant to make our healing more even between single target and cleave damage scenarios.

As for tier, long story short we’re just going to do a lot more passive healing with some potential for gimmicks.

Specifically, we will likely have the highest uptime and healing done by insurance out of all the healers since we benefit from healing amplifications due to the 4 piece bonus, Chi Harmony, and Enveloping Mist, and because we can apply insurance on demand with renewing mist.

1 Like
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Except no one in M+ ever casts RM. In fact casting it is often a net negative due to interactions with Chi Harmony.

I think the problem with monk has always been that Blizz has no idea what they are doing with the class, or how it even functions.

Some abilities do stupid amounts of hps (though often in situational or awkward ways) and others do almost nothing. So when things go wrong there’s nothing to ‘fall back on’. None of the changes in 11.1 show any acknowledgment of that or any attempt to fix the problem.

I’m disappointed since these changes double down on all the existing problems, often making them worse, rather than fixing anything. It’s clear that none of the devs are playing monk.

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Uh what? Can you explain?

If you’re not weaving Renewing Mist as your first triage healing then what are you doing? The first layer of triage for monk is ReM so that you get Chi Harmony to amplify your ATOTM Healing and then preparing your party for vivify cleave into bonus healed targets….

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If you’re not weaving Renewing Mist as your first triage healing then what are you doing?

Enveloping mist/Rising Sun Kick. You don’t want the full RM 20+s cast, since it’s not actually the healing of RM that does anything (it’s laughably small) and can prevent a reapplication from EM/RSK. What you want is that 8s window of +50% healing. So manually casting RM can actually be a net negative, instead you apply it with EM/RSK.

And see that’s the ridiculousness of Monk healing. The spells themselves never work in a way that makes any sense. Instead healing through procs of talents, into other procs, weaved in bizarre and seemingly random ways.

Now if you’re using a RM raid spec then you’ll be casting RM all day and that 4 piece is fantastic. But RM raid spec is the strongest MW spec. So they buffed the strongest spec even better, while nerfing the weakest spec (M+ fistweaving).

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Uh where did you hear this from?
This is beyond silly take.

You only get 8 seconds of Chi Harmony from hard casted Renewing Mist. Rapid diffusion only lasts 6 seconds so you won’t get full 8 seconds unless playing Rising Mist, which is training wheel talent not needed.

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Without going into a deep dive into the probabilities involved, you’ll very rarely end up getting Chi Harmony on the target that needs healing the most except for using Renewing Mist on them directly.

If you try to string multiple Rising Sun Kicks., there’s still a 1/3 chance that the target you want to have Chi Harmony still won’t have it and you’ll also waste all of the healing done by those Rising Sun Kicks because the target won’t have the bonus healing on them.

You should not be casting Renewing Mist with 100% uptime that’s definitely a loss but you should absolutely be casting Renewing Mist on at least 1 injured target to proc Chi Harmony before vivify and also on 2 targets before dumping your RSKs…

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Or I can cast EM and get 40% healing, which is nearly as much, while still getting a RM for free that still goes to someone that needs healing. RM spam is just mathematically inferior, with or without Rising Mist. +40% and +50% is just better than +50% alone. And AFAIK Rapid Diffusion won’t pick an ally with 100% hp unless everyone is at 100% hp. So it’s not like it goes to waste.

Even if it doesn’t always go to the right person, you cast 2-3 EM and you’ve got a much better ramp than 2-3 RM.

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This is incorrect. Check any guide, discord and what Phychi said.

Press Renewing Mist.

It CAN target that one person with 99% health though and be wasted, while that person with 20% health needs the RenMist/Chi.

Not to mention spamming Env Mist will OOM you pretty quickly, even with mana tea.

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Why would I not hit EM instead? Unless I HAVE to be on the move, EM is better than RM. All the MW streamers I’ve watched use EM for their ramps.

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Because it has a cast time. Also EVM HoT doesn’t have enough HPS to respond quickly enough to damage so you’ll still need to vivify. Often times it’s enough just to use your instant vivify on the ReM chi Harmony + ATOTM

Now you’re talking about different things.

There’s a difference between “never use ReM in m+” and “a better ramp uses EvM instead of ReM”

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Best way to think about it is like different “gears” of healing.

Gear 0 is just ATOTM
1st gear is ATOTM + ReM triage + Instant Vivify
2nd Gear is 1 EvM ramp + 1st gear
3rd Gear is 2-3 EvM Ramp + 1st Gear
4th Gear is 2-3 EvM ramp + Vivify spam

etc

Highest HPs Will always be an EvM ramp + vivify spam

But, meeting healing checks is the expectation for healer. What sets people apart is their damage output.

If you can replace EvM with ReM and do the same healing but can get one more global of damage, then that’s important.

Specifically if that global is a blackout kick that resets a RSk Giving you a cast that you otherwise wouldn’t have

This will feed back onto itself because having more RSKS means needing less casts of EvM

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Not when channeling soothing mist (which is the usual method to pre-ramp), or off a proc of which there are multiple. But even if you’re not, the cast time difference is less than 0.5s (1/3 of a GCD).

It has more than RM. In both cases you’ll likely need to follow with 1 or more vivify’s.

In which case EM + vivify will do significantly more healing.

No, there’s no reason to do this. RM + triage is straight up worse than EM + triage. The only exception is if you have to move while triage (Izo comes to mind, but even then it’s rarely the better option).

On top of that manually casting RM can come back to bite you, it can be a net negative. Since casting it manually means it can easily last over the 20s duration. Rapid Diffusion won’t apply the 6s RM over a longer duration RM even if it’s already past the 8s +50% healing window. So you can often end up with a situation where manually casting prevented the +50% application. And it happens more often than you’d think since RM tends to bounce around to targets that need healing.

Monk healing is a bizarre mess where RM isn’t used for it’s healing but for it’s proc. But we don’t cast it and instead cast EM to proc RM. And we use soothing mist not to heal but to quickly cast EM to spread RM… none of which we’re using for healing but to simply prep for the real heals which is some combo of Sheilun’s, Rejuv, or Vivify.

/shrug

I didn’t design this mess… I’m simply pointing out the numbers. I’ve said time and again it isn’t raw HPS that MW needs, it’s a dev that actually has played the class for more than 5 mins. Because no one would play this and go ‘yeah, that makes sense’.

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The people at peak will give you a long explanation that channeling Soom for instant EvM only shifts the relative timing of the cast and not the total time spent casting.

If you are going to EvM 3 targets it will take the same time whether you use SooM or not the only difference is that the casts land at slightly different times.

But we both agree that the healing from EvM is not the important part but rather the bonus healing.

In either case, if you can do the same with ReM it’s less total time casting and more time DPSing.

So just re cast ReM on the target and it will jump to another injured target and re trigger Chi Harmony on the desired target. Doing so will deterministically grant you the necessary healing bonus

You’re too reliant on probabilistic arguments which don’t work for healing. You have to have guarantees. An “oopsie I thought it would proc” doesn’t work.

Sheiluns not needed at all to meet healing checks. You can meet all of them with just effective triage and ramping and vivify spam

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And 40% + 50% bonus healing is more than 50%.

A waste of a GCD because MOST of the RMs are coming from Rapid Diffusion. It’s only ramping one’s that need to be manually cast. You’re hamstring’ing both your triage healing and your ramp healing if you manually cast RM.

Chi-Ji proc isn’t random, nor Soothing Mist or Thunder Tea. The only random one is Ox. And if you’re worried about procs Jadefire Stomp would like a word from you…

… Then spam vivify with EM and RM rather than RM alone, you’ll still do more healing. I can’t think of a single pull or boss in all of M+ apart from Izo where I have to heal and move so much that I can’t use EM and instead might want to hit RM, and even then it’s only 1 spot in the fight.

I don’t understand why this is the hill you insist on dying on. The math is simple, 40% + 50% > 50%, even if the 50% occasionally lands on another target. That’s not even considering that Thunder Tea boosts EM (and you don’t want the RM Thunder Tea, that’s more than a waste), the synergy with Chi-Ji, the multiple procs that boost it, and that the healing bonus of EM can last significantly longer than RM with a single (or multiple) kicks.

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Blackouts cleave got nerfed they buffed crane to “compensate” for it, turned sheilun’s into single target high heal, and reworked empowered jade lightning so we can have beefy aoe heal on st in place of old sheilun’s gift. This rework will probably make master of harmony hero tree be stronger option for season two.

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I’ve been healing on MW for multiple expansions and i think it’s safe to say MW has pretty good design when you look at threads like this and see everyone bickering at each other about the “correct” way to heal with it lol.

There’s a ton of little variations and playstyles that work and none of y’all are necessarily wrong. It reminds me of people arguing about nutrition. Where someone has great success with a certain way of eating and then believes that’s the correct way meant for everyone and gets into an argument with others that have the same revelation about their own diet :joy:

Before the arguments were always between fistweaving vs pure caster and fistweaving technically being superior generally due to bringing DMG/mana efficiency, but since TWW and the .5 patch things have opened up dramatically.

I’ve been doing 12s-13s and experimented with a ton of different variations of builds and they all work and have their strengths.

People need to stop being so dogmatic, but that goes for wow in general.

5 Likes
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So ive been a mistweaver since Wod. I was 3300 season 3 of df. Im currently 2600io now. Not super high i know but ive been working 69hr weeks and i pug a good bit. I suffered in bfa and SL when mw was literally never invited. And ive been crying for damage increases forever. I love mistwaver this season. So our cds include Celestial conduit, chiji (gives an absorb and is up every1 minute), jade stomp with jadelighting proc is huge on the healing. I literally use it on cd for all my big aoe mechanics. I cant say much for the tier sets but i think monk is in a good place. I think a lot of people just dont understand how to fully utilize the class. It actually feels better than my rsham and she is also 2600io+. I dont play evoker but i do have every other type of healer and mw is special to me. I also manage to fistweaver way more than i did in the past. The changes they did make make the rotation feel more fluid. Thats just my personal oppinion.

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