Might of the Frozen Wastes is back

I get that.

It deals some big 5.3k crits on beta. I feel like frost mages just do more tho lol. They are spamming 4k ice lance crits like crazy on top of the rest of their dmg without needing a 45 second cd to do it AND they are gods at 2 target cleave rn which the new raid favours. Obliterate crits outside of KM procs hit for peanuts.

Even MM’s aimed shots are critting for 7-8k and kill shots ive had 10k crits.

I want frost 2h to be good so i can play it. But after testing a lot of classes on beta it just feels, lacking…

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razorice and fc are about the same, but you can make razorice a 1h rune. its easier to balance if you address the issues than put a bandaid on it. we know this because cata through wod the bandaid didnt work.

you also have to look at how many obliterates are physical damage. dont know the exact number but say its 60%, thats a lot of damage missing if you dont take fc.

No, it doesnt, it balances the weapons out as best as possible and makes the choice a spec choice. you get to play more than just obliteration if you want as a 2h, and DW can go into other things as well. If only the covenant didnt lock you in. You have this thought that they should be separate for no reason at all other than “they were in WoD”. You also went on some rant about versatility and not needing the 15% frost damage or whatever it was, but guess what, versatility is a secondary and would have to replace other important secondary stats. DW gets it for free. Again it frees up the spec so its not based on the weapon you choose.

Frost is lacking as a whole. Its design really hasnt changed since Wrath. DnD was basically turned to Remorseless Winter and they got a few new abilities but the core gameplay has stayed the same. A lot of people arent looking at Frost in SL, they are looking at unholy or Blood, you can see this just by looking through the beta forums.

There has been hardly any testing with frost even though it got some upgrades. Either they dont want razorice to increase KM rank 2, of its a bug. That could also possibly mean that mastery + km rank 2 + razorice + fc would be seeing higher Obliterate crits. Razorice does more and more as mastery increases. Heck, does mastery even increase KM rank 2? I mean razorice ended up being a flop what about mastery? If mastery doesnt then its not going to scale yet again and DW will eventually just pull ahead.

I’m 100% sure razorice thingy is a bug. I can confirm that KM 58 scales with mastery.

If its a bug, then it will close that gap in damage per ability press right?

Could you elaborate? Not 100% sure what you mean.

2h KM Obliterate is doing how much damage compared to DW? DW having razorice, and right now its bugged, once that bug is fixed it would close that gap in damage right? (per ability press)

Since Razorice currently has no value when it comes to KM Oblits it would obviously increase the damage of KM Oblits.

DW vs FC 2H -> DW will gain more.
DW vs RI 2H -> 2H will gain more.

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Omg, ty so much for this heads up!

Fair point. Personally I dislike relying on random procs for damage.

But yes Addressing the core instead of a bandaid is ideal.
And much as i’d hate to see razorice become a 1H rune. It would balance. In theory.

Frost really needs more done to it than this gutted nostalgia trip.

So DW having the extra runeforge will close the gap so there wouldnt be the “massive” difference between 2h obliterate and DW obliterate. I think its quite dumb to put so much focus on a singular ability for 2h when DW is quite open to what it can do.

The covenant system is yet another point where things force you into a certain direction. Venthyr is the Breath build for frost, and possibly good for blood for the increased RP generation. Deaths Due is good all round except for the breath build.

This is exactly why locking things in for a spec is an absolutely terrible idea. If DW gets an extra rune then address it. Give 2h what that extra rune is. The only people that like this change, and lets be honest, are the people who want to see DW gone (at least on the forums).

But yes, that 25% is going to scale better with mastery, with that one ability mind you, later which either its going to get nerfed or obliterate is. If its the latter then the spec gets hurt, if its the former then 2h gets hurt and then the forums will flood again that there wasnt a reason to nerf 2h and we arrive back at WoD.

Just give 2h, 15% frost damage, move that 25% to Obliteration so that talent itself can be tuned independently. It would open up 2h for more than just “obliteration or bust” from what it sounds like. This is exactly why I have been constantly saying spec before weapon.

So if KM rank 2 not being increased by RI is a bug then peoples feedback is kind of moot. Breath not being as good is going off of its gameplay where Obliterate is not being increased by RI so its creating this false sense of how good this change is. Right? Something isnt working for one weapon which should so things are getting skewed and the feedback isnt accurate.

Yes, its just a band aid and later in the expansion something is getting nerfed, KM proc chance, 25% obliterate damage, something is going to get a hit. Funneling so much damage into a singular ability is not a good idea.

Frost is lacking as a whole. Its design really hasnt changed since Wrath. DnD was basically turned to Remorseless Winter and they got a few new abilities but the core gameplay has stayed the same. A lot of people arent looking at Frost in SL, they are looking at unholy or Blood, you can see this just by looking through the beta forums.

Lacking what exactly?

Frosts game-play has always been relatively straightforward but I don’t see that as a problem. If anything we now have 2H Obliteration that is what many Frost DK’s have wanted back for years. I look at other classes that have the dice rolled every other expansion and its very hit and miss if the reworks actually deliver a better outcome.

Frost has a simple but enjoyable 2H Obliteration build which gets us away from Breath, finally! Decent CC, good self healing mechanics, adequate defensive CD’s, group utility with AMS/Brez. Tuning aside, mobility is the only area we still battle with.

The biggest issue is that Blizzard spent all the development time on 2H Frost which probably means we missed the boat on some new animations and maybe a couple of new talent interactions that I agree could add a little extra depth. However, getting 2H Frost back was worth it from my perspective and Obliteration at least means you have to ability weave every 45 seconds.

SL Frost might not have moved the needle in a crazy new direction but its certainly getting us back to what many of us consider to be a high point for the spec. Not to mention sharing a weapon with Unholy and Blood means its easy to mix it up. One weapon, three specs is very appealing.

I look at Ret Paladin and the spec literally only needed five things:

  • Bring back auras
  • An improved mobility solution
  • Defensive ability versus spell casters
  • Remove CD on CS
  • Redistribute some of the burst from wings

Yet Blizzard goes and creates a bunch of random flashy new things that fail to deliver and we are weeks away from launch. When the reality is the only item on that list that required any real work was the auras.

Look at Shadow Priest, while they might have finally hit the right balance. How many times has that spec been overhauled and its failed to deliver. The grass is not always greener when it comes to reworking a spec IMO. Go have a chat to Elemental and Enhancement Shamans and they can tell you all about the perils of reworks.

I don’t deny Frost is relatively straightforward spec to play but I don’t agree that means its seriously lacking. Pushing our damage abilities (2H Obliteration build) is satisfying, we have adequate defensive tools, CC, self sustain and we bring some group utility. Its not complicated but its feels good and like a Frost DK…mobility is a challenge but the world isn’t perfect. May I am old school? I don’t like this era of throwaway mechanics each expansion and don’t feel the need to have the spec I enjoy reworked to make it feel totally different. If a new expansion rolls around and I want a change there are plenty of other classes and specs to mix it up with. That said, some new toys and interactions are nice but not at the expense of complete reworks when a classes fundamental design isn’t broken.

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razorice doesnt affect killing machine obliterates. for your testing do fallen crusader. I’ll keep checking each new build to see if they fix it

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mastery does indeed affect killing machine obliterates, as does necrotic aura. I tested it out. the only reason razorice doesnt is that it uses a whitelist of dk frost abilities instead of just a flat increase in frost damage. They haven’t updated the list yet.

gonna laugh if 2h ends up being the meta for pvp and pve for all of shadowlands, so people end up going 2h to stay competitive. better pick out your 2h transmog kelliste!

once they fix razorice the only thing dw will have over 2h is fallen crusader, which probably won’t be enough to overtake 25% more on obliterate. its yet to be seen how the buff to km procs works out at higher crit ratings but running obliteration I’m having more than enough crits as it is, with a pretty low crit rating.

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hopefully you like nightfae then

necrolord is better

For min maxing and talking about meta? Thats why everyone is talking about Necrolord and not Nightfae right… ohhhh wait everyone is expecting a Nightfae nerf.