Might of the Frozen Wastes is back

[Siekfreid-area-52 (Siekfreid)]

@Chillpills-stormrage

I mean at max obliterate gets a 20% buff, 10% buff from the legendary and dips into the mastery pool on killing machines which can be forced proced from obliteration and youre gonna tell me 2h doesnt have a place in the game?

Yes because DW can dip into all of that and gets to increase the rest of its damage by 15%. Unless KM Part 2 scales off the Obliterate damage and not flat AP, these buffs accomplish nothing to make 2H Frost a competitive choice.

@Chillpills-stormrage

All of this and its still earlyish beta

Prepatch is on PTR. We’re not in “early beta”. Blizzard themselves said the plan was to push on conduits and return to class design for the rest of beta; we’re way past early and likely past the halfway point.

@Kelliste-antonidas

So getting things back that we already had aside from KM rank 2. Thats not development

Correct.

@Chillpills-stormrage

But now in SL KM rank 2 makes it do frost

Rank 2 says “also”. It deals extra damage as Frost which, again, if it’s based off your AP (similar to Crystalline Sword) it’s going to be negligible for 2H and mastery will still be (basically) worthless.

[Kelliste-antonidas (Kelliste)]

He did? Where?

[Graendoll-emerald-dream]

Really?

This right here:

@Kelliste-antonidas

Lets take 1000 damage as a base for Obliterate before Might and KM procs. That means its 1250 for 2h and 1000 for DW. A crit would be 2500 and 2000, KM would be 2500 for 2h and 2300 for DW which is an 8.3% difference. This is assuming mastery is at 0, versatility is at 0, no str procs or anything else.

is oversimplified, and not a 1:1 comparison because you are adding Razorice to one and not the other.

You said so yourself:

@Kelliste-antonidas

Depends on a ton of variables, but has anyone even looked at the % breakdown of DW?

@Kelliste-antonidas

Not to mention I would need beta to do so.

Yes you would. And you don’t have it.

[Cørnbread-kiljaeden]

I tested it on the beta. It makes all of obliterates damage frost damage.

[Graendoll-emerald-dream]

@Siekfreid-area-52

It deals extra damage as Frost

Are you sure about that? I saw it was all frost…

[Kelliste-antonidas (Kelliste)]

Im adding razorice because that is a part of DW mechanics, the exact thing Blizzard stated they were trying to bridge with the 25% buff…

[Cørnbread-kiljaeden]

With rank 2 killing machine, 2H is better off choosing razorice. Its a much better runeforge than Fallen Crusader now.

[Siekfreid-area-52 (Siekfreid)]

@Cørnbread-kiljaeden

I tested it on the beta. It makes all of obliterates damage frost damage.

I’ll have to test that myself then; sounds like a tooltip needs to be updated.

@Trumpknight-darrowmere

Someone like Bicepspump, who already explained in extensive detail how and why this “10%” number they keep haphazardly repeating is just unadulterated fake news.

Obliterate deals 100 damage. Might makes it 125 for 2H without FC procs. DW will do 100 + Razorice damage * 3 * amount of stacks. Razorice does 1 damage, meaning after 5 Obliterates, autos, and Frost Strikes, DW Obliterates are dealing 115.

125 to 115 - 10 damage difference, 8% total.
With a crit, we’re looking at 250 to 225 - 25 damage difference, 14% total, giving an 11% difference.

Assuming KM part 2 does indeed make it all Frost damage, then these buffs are mediocre at best for 2H.

Regardless, the spec still needs major tuning, especially in its talents. People should be focusing on that

[Kelliste-antonidas (Kelliste)]

Read the beta forums, looks like DW is about 15% ahead in single target and 30% in aoe according to beta testers.

[Trumpknight-darrowmere (Trumpknight)]

@Bicepspump-galakrond

Please stop throwing around this baseless 10% number. Makes not sense to just continue repeating it. 1. It’s based on 2H not running razorice which itself isn’t given at all. 2. It’s only on the km procs themselves.

@Bicepspump-galakrond

Just considering current damage breakdown, I’ve seen numbers as high as ~60% obliterate damage. A 25% increase on that is a total 15% damage increase.

@Bicepspump-galakrond

These numbers are very rough but it just shows the significance of the 25%. Again I’d like to emphasize that it’s still early and it’s difficult to say how 2H obliteration Will perform

@Bicepspump-galakrond

This completely disregards the fact that you have lots of normal Obliterates in a fight, where 2H does 25% more. It’s tricky and I currently can’t test/ math it out exactly.

@Bicepspump-galakrond

Now you pick obliteration. Both builds gain a set of amount of procs, let’s say 10, making it 20 vs 24 in total. From having 40% more KM procs, DW now only has 20%. Since 2H gets more damage from KM procs, it’s now relatively better compared to DW.

@Bicepspump-galakrond

Obliteration increases the % of your total damage that comes from Obliterate. This benefits 2H more than DW.

@Bicepspump-galakrond

Obliterate it the spell that gains significant damage in that window. It’s not rocket science that Obliteration increases the % of your damage that comes from Obliterate.

@Bicepspump-galakrond

If DW and 2H both deal 100 dps with no talent, 2H will deal more if both specs into Obliteration.

@Bicepspump-galakrond

The % damage increase gain that 2H gets from Obliteration is greater than what DW gains.

@Bicepspump-galakrond

The absolute values don’t matter. DW could do 100 times more damage all time and it wouldn’t matter for this specific discussion. If you compare no talent to Obliteration, what happens is that you gain more KM procs

@Bicepspump-galakrond

Regarding Fallen Crusader, it has ~60% uptime at 0% haste, scaling upwards. This equates to 9% average strength increase which is essentially the same as 9% increased damage. You need 60% of your damage to be mastery for razorice to contribute the same damage increase, not counting the actual melee hit damage from razorice

@Billymays-galakrond

But wait there’s more!

@Bicepspump-galakrond

Exactly, which is why 2H gains more, since its oblits are buffed by 25%.

@Bicepspump-galakrond

I don’t even need to argue anything here, you did it for yourself.

---

[Chillpills-stormrage]

[Cørnbread-kiljaeden]

Least they have a knob now to turn. The one us pvp dks were hoping for.

[Kelliste-antonidas (Kelliste)]

Hes talking about DPS, thats what the ~60% is referencing, 60% of your damage is obliterate. What we are talking about is a single press and the difference in the number that pops up, and always have been.

If you press obliterate with a KM proc as 2h its 8.3% higher than if you did the same with DW. So where did he said what we were talking about was wrong?

[Graendoll-emerald-dream]

@Kelliste-antonidas

Im adding razorice because that is a part of DW mechanics

Making it an oversimplified and unfair comparison.

We need numbers from the beta.

[Graendoll-emerald-dream]

@Kelliste-antonidas

If you press obliterate with a KM proc as 2h its 8.3% higher than if you did the same with DW.

No, it is not. You are making up numbers and stacking the deck to suite your narrative.

[Cørnbread-kiljaeden]

Thats assuming 2H players will not take razorice, which would be stupid given the changes.

razorice is now the best runeforge.

[Kelliste-antonidas (Kelliste)]

No it isnt lol. Its showing what the 25% damage increase does. Does anyone have the % damage breakdown is with the same build using DW instead?

[Graendoll-emerald-dream]

@Kelliste-antonidas

Does anyone have the % damage breakdown is with the same build using DW instead?

Right? Let’s look at those instead of making it up.

[Kelliste-antonidas (Kelliste)]

What am I making up?

[Graendoll-emerald-dream]

Ways to continually argue.