Mary Sues, Self Inserts and Creator's Pets

Lore Story Forum
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So I think we need a lot of talk about why the authors give such massive preferential treatment to some characters and the negative repercussions it has on the plot.

For Mary Sues, the answer is simple, WoW Doesn’t have any. A Major part of this is the fact Mary Sue is a phrase that had it’s origin in fanfiction. It’s the name of the Title Character of a Parody Star Trek fic lampooning the insane OC’s that are so much better then the main characters guys, honestly. Trying to apply it to a Canon Work is always kind of an impossible task. This is especially true in long running works with multiple authors, were a character might be given far more focus and shilling by one then by another (Batman is a great example).

Then there is the accusations of Self Inserts, which I am just confused about. A lot of Authors base their characters off of themselves somewhat, and Escapist literature will often use what the author wants, like how completely removing politics from a work is nigh impossible, Author’s will either conciously or not, leave an imprint. Another issue is most of the Self Inserts in WoW are actually just Creator Cameos. You might find a High Elf Named Kristen Golden or a Human Paladin with the name Metzen, but they do nothing in the overall plotline, maybe act as a minor questgiver, but normally just stand around because they are cameos. Of the other characters accused of being a self insert, the only one that has an overall negative impact on the Story is Golden’s Silver Haired Warlock which completely ignored the entire Dynamic of Warlocks being hated by the general public.

Most accused Self Inserts and Mary Sues are just Creator’s Pets in practice. A Creator’s Pet is a character given more importance then they honestly should by an Author. Sometimes this can be Benign or even good for the Story if said character becomes a fan favorite, but if the character starts to negative;y impact the story with their favoritism…

I know a lot of people accuse Anduin of being the worst thing that has ever happened to the story, but to be honest other then being annoying and messing with the entire morality system, he ain’t to bad. There are far worse creators pets in the game. Like his Father, Varian. First time we had an entire Raid Retconned was to say Varian actually killed Onyxia, he was made from the start to be the Alliance’s Thrall (Thats the entire reason he was a Gladiator) and later would have his negative qualities removed not from character development, but by DRINKING A POTION. He would also have the other Alliance leaders look like complete idiots so he would look better, and the Horde was made more evil so he could be more good for fighting them.

Other Major Creator’s Pets include Calia, Baine, Nathanos and Sylvanas, the latter is a villainous creators pet. Calia is having an entire faction reworked to fit her. Baine is constantly receiving a god damn boatload of character shilling despite never doing anything to really deserve it. Sylvanas is the same thing (at least as of BfA), with them constantly going on about how clever she is and how she is one of the biggest threats to azeroth ever and… she’s is really just an idiot throughout all of BfA. Nathanos is far to omnipresent, being at every single front almost simultaneously. This does mean the alliance hate him, an awful lot because he is there every time they get humilated, but it also means other Horde characters like Rexxar don;'t get enough screentime. The Biggest Creator’s pet though is Jaina, and I’m not saying this because she hates the horde half the time (well kinda, but we’ll get to that later)

Jaina has far to much narrative focus, and is given a ton of unneeded power and character shilling. This is bad for several Reasons

  1. She lacks a consistent characterization, especially on her opinion of the Horde. She shouldn’t be flip flopping every new novel or expansion, she should either be Anti-Horde, or Pro-Horde. Have another character do the opposite role

  2. She is to omnipresent, it’s like Nathanos. Both characters are to common in the plot, meaning other potentially cool alliance characters don’t get enough screentime. Wouldn’t it be cool if leading the Alliance’s navy we got say, Admiral Rogers? The Woman who would love to massacre the entire Horde, isn’t it funny when we had an expansion dedicated to faction fighting she is nowhere to be found but Jaina is? It also just makes Horde players hate her, especially when we have to do crap like help he undermine our own faction, right after she killed one of our allies and embarrassed the entire horde with her sheer power during the previous raid. Doesn’t help that despite being “Badly Wounded” she is walking up and about in the very next scene.

  3. She makes other characters actively look worse. Lorthemar Shilling for the woman who imprisoned his people without a trial, no matter how justified she might have been (Seriously, No Purge Discourse), especially when he wanted to KILL HER for it seriously undermines the entire character of Lorthemar! He is a pragmatist who cares a great deal about his people, why in the Maws Names is he talking about how great Jaina is? Then we have the entire rest of the Horde leaving Mulgore in the Hands of Magatha just for Jaina to be able to save it. The entire Legitimate Target and Theramore Neutrality kerfuffle really ruined Baine’s character for a lot of people. Hell, her flip flopping between war and peace has irritated a good deal of Alliance players themselves!

  4. Her sheer power level kills all the tension in the plot. Jaina is so powerful multiple people, on both faction, have said “Why doesn’t she just destroy the Horde?”, because to be honest, She probably could just teleport to the council room and kill everyone there is she wanted to. She is the only boss to not only succeed in her Raid, but get away from it Scot Free, (Even Azshara had to be resurrected by N’zoth, Jaina just Teleported Away) being active in the plot again immediately afterwards. While Baine is Dying, Thrall is being useless, and Anduin is imprisoned in the deepest depths of the Maw, Jaina is going around soloing it. Her issue is she’s trapped and can’t leave, not that it’s dangerous. This is really making the villain look weak.

All in all, Creator’s Pets are one of the 2 things really destroying wow, with the other being pointless retcons.

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They really really just need to cull the cast down to at most 4 new characters per faction plus our character, so a grand total of 9 major characters. Everyone else being supporting roles.

Else we will continue to get threads like this and everyone will be upset forever.

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Honeslty, what they need to do for the most part is just… not have major multi-expansion important NPCs.

In general try to keep NPCs storylines to a zone or patch. The only time an Expansion Long NPC could work is if it’s like Khadgar in WoD, who is just our expeditions commander

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I’d count Sylvanas as a mary sue, atleast ever since the new writers took over.

She can never lose, never be punished for her crimes, get ALL the screentime (all the cinematics etc.), lets gods (elune) look like a joke, commits some of the worst crimes in wow history, destroys things people loved about the game and always gets away unscarred.

They are pushing a World of Sylvanas in the expense of Alliance fans (especially Night Elf fans) and Horde fans (those that wanted to play noble savages, not bloodthirsty genocidal mass murders) just for the sake of making people love Sylvanas and recognize how great of a character she is after she saves us all by killing us all.
Statements like “Sylvanas isn’t evil” or that she won’t die after commiting so many crimes, even genociding an entire playable race and burning down everything they had along with many other things are unique to Sylvanas.
We killed villains for way less already, only Sylvanas is still untouchable and considered “not evil” by the very people who write her.

Nathanos is the obvious self insert of a certain writer. If we take a look at all the “my queen” “my warchief” tweets and how desperately he is trying to keep Nathanos alive even through the revenge patch of the Night Elves where he absolutely should have died against impossible odds, things are already quite clear.
Now if we take the ingame references and the fact that Nathanos is basically Sylvanas’ boyfriend, there are no doubts anymore.

Not to mention how this guy removed Garrosh calling Sylvanas exactly what she is just because it hurt him too much. He just couldn’t sleep over it.

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My point about mary sue is that the word lacks a concrete definition (widely from misuse and overuse), so useing it is pointless.

As for Nathanos… I’m pretty sure this is a case of an Author really liking a character, but i wouldn’t call him a self insert. 100% a Creator Pet, but someone making jokes about simping for Sylvanas and literally inserting himself into the story are vastly different. I wouldn’t call him a self insert, because the evidence is lacking.

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You can replace Sylvanas with Jaina.

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So 4 new characters per faction for each expansion? If so that would be too much. Maybe 4 new ones for every other expansion. As it stands they have a lot to work with. What they really need to do is utilize the roster that they already have with characters that fit into that narrative. Prime example was Nazjatar. Jaina and Genn really shouldn’t have been involved. Another example was Keeshan and Shandris in Nazmir hunting an Dark Ranger. Why not Alleria and Shandris? Both are ancient huntresses of similar skill and abilities going after someone that Shandris had previously worked with (stupid retcon) which means Alleria probably knew her as well. And if Shandris worked with said dark ranger in the past she probably knew Alleria.

The op said Jaina is overused and it’s true but do is a Khadgar and sometimes Velen. Why wasn’t Tyrande at the Tomb of Sargeras?

I know my complaints are elf focused but it’s just highlights a problem that they have with preferential treatment with certain characters.

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I dont see a problem with this in the sense that nearly every dungeon/raid has been given a “canonical” victor. Ultimately, this was more of solidifying a lore point that would have been key to Varian as a character.

This literally is not the case. As shown by “Blood of our Father” he would still slip into his rage roid self every so often. It was even explained during Warcrime he couldnt always control his anger. Exactly like the worgens who drank potion cannot full control their own anger at times.

Oh please, Varian acted foolish at times and his own failing and fell for Garrosh’s traps whenever it was convenient for the plot. Hell, he got tricked into sending forces to Theramore to all be mana bombed by Garrosh and then later in the same book ended up nearly losing the entire fleet because apparently Garrosh had Krakens.

Not to mention his whole rage roid self appeared every so often like the aformentioned Blood of our Father or when he decided to have a little screaming match with Jaina when he learned about her helping Baine.

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Ngl the hate for Sylvanas is bordering on obsession lately lowkey in my eyes.

WoW has no marry sues, or self inserts with major importance (Seriously dansuar just likes Nathanos, he’s legit been the same but is just used more often lately I don’t understand)

I agree though about creator pets taking center stage way too often, while more suitable characters for a story arc are shunned.

I think a major reason people dislike Anduin is because he’s Jaina 2.0 and he’d be fine if Jaina didn’t constantly flip back and forth, he was actually challenged on his beliefs or tactics and like Sylvanas the story bends around to make them right in the end.

I’d say they’re both character pets who are given way too much attention at the detriment of everyone else.

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No I mean four main characters per faction period. You can add some new characters in for the expansion and such, but the ones we will be following most consistently would be part of the main four.

The problem they have now is that their roster is just too big. They do a terrible job trying to balance all of those characters in any given situation and the end result is always “Why did they use X when they could have used Y”. This leads to the other problem where characters are just not developed because there isn’t enough time to develop them because they are suddenly swinging in a different direction with an entirely different cast.

It’s why I want them to just cull the cast and bring it down to a more manageable number per faction. THEN start worrying about who that core cast interacts with in a meaningful way.

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I dislike the idea of an overarching main character for the factions as a whole.

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We’ve got too many races and by product of that too many characters who demand representation. Allied races were a mistake. Pandaren were a mistake.

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Khadgar was a fan favorite he was used but wasn’t someone who just constantly solved all our problems or did all the heavy lifting, he was like others said a guide more or less.

It also helps that since the start he’s stayed on his neutral seat and refused to support one side over another.

The only time I think of Velen being used was WoD and Legion, and in one of those xpacs he sacrificed himself like a boss to prop up another character, then of course legion not using velen would be a crime.

My only thought of not having tyrande in tomb is we already had to be with her for two zones to an extent Horde side, and we already had illidan, Khadgar, and Velen.

It seems like if any elf should be in the tomb it should be the guy who killed all those wardens/sentinels in the tomb but, is now repenting for his actions. (More or less)

Also idk bout you but having to always quest or help characters of the opposite faction gets to be real annoying and kind of insulting.

Like come on meeting tyrande in val’sharah and her bad mouthing horde players the whole way, then again when helping the nightborne, lord knows she wouldn’t have let up if she was placed in tomb with us.

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And far too few characters. They would fall into the same pattern of using the dance people over and over again, which everyone is sick of.

If not the whole thing she should have been present during the portion where we fight the elf ghosts and especially the amalgamation of souls fight. Soul Queen Dejhana who is also in that fight is Tyrande’s direct predecessor and mentor.

It’s not that often and what do you expect? You’re a member of the opposite faction. The horde doesn’t even interact with her during the Nightborne phase.

My point is that relevant characters should be used in relevant plot points instead of hamfisting in unrelated and overused characters.

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I’d also not center the story exclusively around races and the like and better focus on a consistent narrative for the factions as a whole, instead of trying to tell 26 different storylines and failing every single time.

EDIT: Though I will admit I am spoiled by the actual good storytelling a game like FFXIV can have, and I just want that in WoW. A tight concise story with a tight core cast that actually gets development and not just a plot device to explain why race A is mad at race B for the 100th time.

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I mean you have to admit, it would seem pretty stupid for her to ONLY show up for those fights and then have no presence after, either you add her or ya don’t.

Idk, it feels like around every corner I turn, I as a Horde player have to wonder will I be dealing with Alliance leaning individuals or Neutral characters who are Ex Alliance, instead of just Horde leaning individuals or Neutral characters who are Ex Horde.

Honestly feels like I deal with the Alliance/ Alliance Neutral more in big events than my own faction.

I mean I don’t think you’ll get any blow back from most people regarding that sentiment but, I guess the only issue is, lots of characters may have a problem with a certain insert antagonist here and the main issue is blizzard wondering who should get priority because having a army of major characters with an issue lined up sounds a little absurd.

Like Imo Forsaken should have main priority dealing with Sylvanas/ Nathanos, but others will clearly disagree viewing their plight as more of a priority.

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Alliance legends and lore characters badmouthing us while we work for them? You are right, that’s pretty rare (though don’t make the mistake of going to talk to Tyrande in Surumar as Horde, she just continues that trend). Horde characters being forced to work for Alliance lore heavy characters, without Horde characters present to offset it? Pretty regularly tbh.

Genuinely consider for a moment when the last time an Alliance player was forced to exclusively work for or with a Horde Character, without an Alliance character also being present to offset it. Outside of a handful of dungeons, if your answer is a single questline, a dungeon, and a raid in Cata with Thrall? You’d probably be correct. Now consider just how often Horde players are forced to work exclusively with Alliance lore-heavy characters, painted loosely over with “neutrality” to justify the Horde players presence in a story that was clearly not written with their inclusion in mind?

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I’d prefer the opposite solution: more and smaller storylines so that you can avoid the characters that annoy you instead of being stuck with a small cast of mains who dominate everything. Like, I have issues with Jaina, as everyone knows, and even though I’ve mained Alliance this expac, I haven’t been able to bring myself to play through her Grand Journey of Emotional Healing™ and so have missed an important chunk of the main story.

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I’m fine with smaller side stories, but when you have an entire narrative shotgunning from one plot point to another and none of them actually ending, those tend to make me go why bother.

Like the entire plot of BfA was a scattershot of multiple plotlines that barely linked together with characters that barely linked together. Even if you the player is supposed to be the lynchpin to connect them together because our player characters barely exist as characters I always found them it to be too…unfocused.

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Which fights did Illidan, Velen, Maiev, and Khadgar show up for other than the last one?

It should be the same for both or not at all in my opinion. And the attitude of the opposing faction npc should be consistent. They shouldn’t be overly nice just because we are working together.

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