Marksman is too boring in 11.1

Classes Hunter
1

I know there are other threads talking about this, but I couldn’t keep quiet anymore. What happened to our beloved class? I am talking about class design here and not damage. Also, this isn’t about Hero talents, as every class has them. I am talking about core abilities. Anyone remember how fun MM was in Dragonflight? Look at what all they have taken since then.

  1. Serpent sting - (been there forever)
  2. Lone wolf - (even though you can still use a pet)
  3. Sniper shot - (yes, I know volley and trueshot gives it but it’s not the same)
  4. Chakram - Why?
  5. Arctic Bolas - Why?
  6. Barrage - Why?
  7. Windrunners Legacy - Why?
  8. Wailing arrow - Why?
  9. The rework to Trueshot is garbage

Now let’s look at what the gave us

  1. Spotters mark - (forced to use precise shots)
  2. Double tap - (should have never been taken away in the first place)

And that’s it!

MM has been torn down from so many abilities and just feels so boring and bland to play. And no…my solution is not to reroll. I love my class. I just don’t understand why all this happened. This is just my opinion folks, which is just one of many I know.

20 Likes
2

MM for too long has been this hodge podge of bs that didn’t work. Bits of survival and bits of BM smashed together to form a mess of a spec. They are finally taking it in it’s own direction and I think that is fantastic. Did they stick the landing with version 1 of new mm, nah, it’s very bland. Did they put it into a spot they can build on the fantasy and really make it it’s own thing. Yeah, I think so.

Give them some time. They have said they aren’t done working on it.

7 Likes
3

I’ll never understand players who feel MM has a better “vision” or whatever.

MM plays almost the same as before. Our shot priority is just a little bit different — but we still use Aimed Shot, Rapid Fire, Arcane Shot, Steady Shot, Explosive Shot, and Kill Shot.

Even the rotation is mostly the same - you just don’t open with Aimed Shot anymore.

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4

Bit more than just little bit, as you said priority shots have changed we now open with explosive shot into rapid fire into multi/arcane into aimed vs aimed shot into multi/arcane into aimed shot into multi/arcane into rapid fire. We no longer buff multi shot with rapid fire we now buff aimed shot with rapid fire for damage and precise shots for cast time reduction. It may look same on first glance but standard rotation and shot priority was changed significantly. Due to changes we no longer have our signature burst damage profile, now we are more of gradual buildup type of damage, because it takes several buff buildups to get our main damage output buffed.

5

Again blizz never made proper lore for what is a hunter. It’s always been a backround kind of class made from a box of scraps so they could put a bow/gun/crossbow in someones hands. They never stopped to truly think about what a hunter is and just claim random junk for it as iconic and take forever to make it reasonable or remove it cause they can’t make it make sense.

I mean we have Shadow Hunter trolls but they used throwing spears so that’s not “huntery” enough to have ever made it in. But they can only really name one true hunter the Beastmaster Rexxar. But i guess cause tyrande and sylvanas uses bows they will use them but they felt more like warriors with some archery abilities then real hunters. Hunter was made as more of a kitbash.

If you want a real hunter look at John J. Keeshan.

6

Bola crap
Serpent Sting on mm just does nothing , it’s a passive that’s just there, zero synergy with anything.
Chakram also crap, there was no thought process around using it, you pressed it on cd.
Double tap is still bad, it’s been bad for years. Anyone who thinks an extra rapid fire worth of damage is anything special is crazy.
Wailing arrow, I’d rather it be a utility that’s instant cast and aoe silenced. It had no value in keys cause you’re just killing your DPS, and only having it sometimes just awful. Barrage is fine being gone, spell has had zero competitive use in any form of end content forever. All it was good for was clearing old raids, and if you really need it just play bm when you do old raids. It hardly matters what you play for that, everything dies instantly.

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7

and SV is a bit of an arms warrior, a bit of rogue, a bit on BM smash together.

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8

That’s why I said “mostly.” :wink:

You’re 100% right about the mechanics having changed, which affects the priority and rhythm, but ultimately? It’s not that different. One shot still buffs the other. We still use, mostly, the same toolkit.

It’s not like the changes from WoD to Legion to BFA.

EDIT: which, in retrospect, is what colors my perception of the 11.1 changes. I’ve been through everything, so I rate this as a “mid” change.

1 Like
9

This is part and parcel of Crit In Our :jeans:. Penetrating Shots is until now a TWW exclusive. When Blizzard saw that the best MMs in the business were stacking Msty and Vers over Haste and Versatility, they realized what they were going for: fewer but far better hitting attacks with the highest possible crit damage resolution.

Serpent Sting didn’t hold up to Master Marks. Lone Wolf won’t hold up to 200+(0.4*Crit Chance)% damage on crit. Sniper Shot won’t be needed when ALL OTHER attacks will hit for much harder across the board. The rest of the stuff on the list would be bloat that never really hit as hard.

We didn’t need too many abilities to keep cycling, and the better specs are often the simpler. We needed to stack a stat that was more synergetic and practically useful: we can’t be MAD(multiple attribute dependent). So this should be sufficient enough to explain…

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10

Lets not talk about dark ages :scream:.
The rhythm change of mm is one i dislike the most, it use to flow better.

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11

Yeah, I’m still building up my muscle memory. I’ve got it mostly down, but occasionally I still open combat with Aimed Shot without thinking about it.

12

Yeah i do same thing.

13

Opening with explosive (except on single target) would be a waste of two Streamline stacks when talented into Salvo. If Salvo is not talented, Explosive into Arcane (or Multi) will gain 2 stacks of Streamline and the Precise Shot buff. Adding Rapid Fire wastes one Streamline stack.

You can open with Rapid Fire, then Arcane or Multi, which would generate two stacks of Streamline and gain the Precise Shot buff to Aimed Shot. Using Trueshot just before using the buffed AiS is a nice way to start the cooldown rotation.

  1. Rapid Fire + Arcane (or Multi)
  2. Explosive Shot + Arcane (or Multi)
  3. Volley (with or without Salvo) + Arcane (or Multi)

The above before each AiS cast maintains the 2 stacks of Streamline and Precise Shot buff for each AiS fired during Trueshot without wasting stacks.

Don’t forget, the Lock n’ Load AiS doesn’t consume the Streamline stacks, so a quick Arcane after LnL will rebuff the next AiS.

Sorry for the drawn-out summary. You may already know this. It was more for others trying the spec.

5 Likes
14

Depends on talents ,way i have it set up explosive shot gives me stack of streamline and precise shots reduce cd on explosive. Doing it way i have described yield’s better output, and faster buffed aimed shots. There are several builds and shot priority changes depending on it.

There is nothing to apologize for, sharing info and opinions is what forums are for.

3 Likes
15

Serpent sting used to be an active.
I don’t see what the problem with “you press it on cooldown” is, there are literally hundreds of abilities across all the classes and specs in the game that function like this. It gives you more buttons to press which keeps things fresh and more burst you can selectively time in small encounters. The game’s core class design devolving into four button specs like MM is now would NOT be a good thing, and given the awful reception Blizz got from the heavy ability pruning a few expansions back we know the players don’t want this.

Other than the spotter’s mark thing kind of feeling like a nothing inclusion, I think the way the core stuff flows in the rework is great but the problem is how many abilities they took away from us for seemingly no reason. If we got manual cast serpent sting back, baseline trick shots, and chakram or some other additional rotation button or two to talent into I’d be perfectly happy with the rework.

16

I say that the rotation often feels counter-intuitive and relies on getting procs to feel decent - but honestly it feels like a builder-spender without the combo points attached. You try to hit other buttons to build up aimed shot and to not have a huge cast time. The prior version to me, felt better especially during cooldowns.

Rapid fire is supposed to help recover focus - but you want to cast it BEFORE aimed shot/ often before something else that cost focus? Not good.

4 Likes
17

DF S3/4 MM —despite some jank and relative (e.g., skill to skill) tuning issues— was probably the most fun I’d had on MM…

…outside of maybe a built-for-fun-over-damage Venthyr MM alt with Deadeye, Lock-and-Load, and Double-Tap back when you could still double an LnL-Aimed Shot even after doubling 6 of 7 Rapid Fire shots.

I miss it greatly. Could it have been better? Certainly. Was it nonetheless seemingly better than this? Also certainly, imo.

18

Bowl of, yes. Glad it’s gone.

Not everything needs to be performatively synergetic. I’m not even sure why people treat that as a universally good thing. Once tuned around, a “synergy” is just an interdependence that forces bundling. Use your big hit CD after amp [de]buff GCD and amp oGCD CD. It’s generally the anti-synergies like your amp and big hit following different frequencies and therefore seeing either reduced total use count or average value per use that makes things interesting.

Serpentstalker’s gameplay was in retargeting and in skipped low-direct-damage GCDs. You take the talent, and now you can forgo using up a GCD on a mere couple ticks’ worth of direct damage from Serpent Sting and instead just open with Aimed Shot sooner for the same result on a given target. Accordingly, you were also encouraged to swap targets. Small gameplay loop added, with some small amount of cognitive load competing for attention against other sources and for focused throughput against chained shots into a focus target. That was… fine, honestly.

Mostly agreed, largely because it gave too much at once to be worth holding (Focus, damage, and damage amp). Had it given greater damage amplification duration when used at high Focus and far more Focus gen when used at little Focus, it may have been salvageable, but I hated having to take it.

Yes, ever since its relative tuning fell through, in no small part because of lost synergies like Bolstering Shots (quadratically increased RF damage per RF shot). Shockingly.

I’m meh on the design, but, anyone thinking an extra RF’s worth of damage (and Focus) is something special… is just as sane as the frequency and damage of that bonus RF would suggest. It’s nothing innate to DT.

See Tuning, the general_concept/myth/man/legend. A better tuned WA, especially for AoE splash, would have been an excellent(ly thematic) way for DR to better compete.

Again, solely because of tuning. But you could cripple the tuning on Fists of Fury or Bladestorm such that they’re not worth using at all and that still wouldn’t stop the concept of a channelled (visually) seemingly-powerful AoE from appealing to quite a few players. If it looks ‘sick’, people will wants it.

19

“Rapid fire is supposed to help recover focus - but you want to cast it BEFORE aimed shot/ often before something else that cost focus? Not good.”

I completely agree with this. We traded not using Precise Shots during Trueshot to using a Focus recovery/damage ability with a full bar of Focus. It doesn’t make sense.

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The spec hasn’t even changed that much.