Agree with this. Almost all the Night Elves’ known pre-Alliance policies—the vigil, the sexist distribution of labor, the ban on magic, the retreat into the Dream—were bad and reflect a myopically conservative outlook.
He didn’t have that choice. It was either exile them or allow his people to execute the capital sentences the law demanded for their actions.
2 Likes
Evidently it wasn’t, seeing as how they formed a society that lasted (and arguably persists) for 7000+ years.
If it was a so-called “death sentence”, Dath’remar would have fought against it.
3 Likes
Considering the near destruction of the world due to reckless magic I doubt any night elf who did survive would be willing to risk another tragedy.
Oh please, instead of actually getting ready for the Legion, the highborne and their Silvermoon decendents were quite content to hide and ultimately didnt bother to actually prepare for the coming of the Legion.
3 Likes
yeah but you’re thinking that I meant that he should embrace arcane. I told you that his decision to exile at the time was not a decision for ''PEACE ‘’ this decision was execution sentence without spilling blood directly, thats all. and this is not a wise decision cuz at the time they were his ppl too.
he could have exiled them to south Kalimdor and that would be fine, but sending them to the ocean was a mean to murder every highborn.
if he knew that there was another continent he would have given a map or directions, but he did not, he did not even told them that EK existed.
both sides had their problems with the other but they were still under the same government, so the law should embrace both, if not you are stating that malfurion was a racist and by that he would not be wise either cuz he let his hatred blind him.
I’m just telling you that he is not wise, not when blizzard keep slamming NE ppl with the failures of their leaders just so the SW leaders can shine as paragons of all the Living.
you’re working with evidences that came after the fact, not when the fact was stated.
Dath’remar had one choice, be exiled or executed… which one would you pick? a 1 in a 10000 chance to live or a 100% chance to die?
their fate after the exile was their own, but at the time of the exile they did not knew that EK existed, they sailed without destiny. this is the same as giving you a death sentence…
to quote it for you from wowpedia in the High elf section.
Exile of the Highborne
When the night elves adopted druidism, they outlawed the practice of arcane magic. The use of its dangerous powers was punishable by death.
The druids could not bring themselves to put so many of their kin to death, so they decided to exile the reckless Highborne from their lands. Sunstrider and his followers boarded a number of specially crafted ships and set sail upon the seas. By now the Highborne were glad to be rid of their conservative cousins and free to practice the arcane with impunity.
None knew what lay beyond the Maelstrom, but they eventually found the Eastern Kingdoms and formed their own magical realm.
PS: sorry for double posting.
His people wouldn’t have been capable of simply throwing the high borne in chains and executing them, these high borne were mages of azshara’s inner circle they had the teeth to back a rebellion and while they most likely wouldn’t have won it would have been bloody. Exile was the best way to prevent a full blown civil war
THey could have executed them, it would have been at a cost, but yeah they could have done it. the highborns while still being strong were no longer holding the reigns of the kaldoreis state machinery and guaranteed to lose that battle. but i agree, exiling them was the better choice.
not really, it was rather progressive in comparison to what they had before. a disgusting decadent drooling out of touch aristocracy which got nearly the entire planet killed through its service to imperialist demons (the legion)
tyrande and malfurions society they built, in comparison, saw an era of peace seemingly undreamed of… like thousands and thousands of years of peace and prosperity. they actively combatted threats to the planet, rather than serve them… that’s a plus in my books.
5 Likes
Oh definitely the night elves would have won but the high borne had a lot of the heavy hitter mage families including the sunstriders so im stating it wouldn’t be an execution but a civil war
3 Likes
I would focus on this line more than anything else you said.
I accidentally deleted this post in writing my response, and I’m too lazy to fix it. You can see what I said where Spuddy quotes me below.
Reading everyone’s posts on this it’d be cool to see a what if alternate history story written on this kind of like what nobbel or however you spell it did on what if illidan became a druid. I think a war with dath’remar would have push malfurion over the edge and after their epic show down and seeing how dangerous a mage could truly be we would have ended up with a more illidan like malfurion that actively hunted and repressed the use of arcane magic even going so far as to hunt down the last high borne cities of dire mail and suramar just to ensure that the practice never again thrived under any race.
1 Like
Alternate histories, despite Warlords of Draenor’s wonky “only one Legion” and entire lack of end game content, are really cool in my book. I’m in love with the Heroes of the Storm skins with Shan’do Illidan and Malfurion the Betrayer and Warden Tyrande. I think that would be an amazing alternate universe to get to play in.
1 Like
I attribute this to the abolition of the old caste system (highborn, lowborn divisions), which involved the ban on arcane magic yes, the “isolationism” which really just means “non interventionist, non expansionist” to me…and yeah the devotion to cultivating druidism probably allowed them as a whole to be more prosperous as a forest dwelling people… i wish blizz would expand on what actually happened during the long vigil tho, the sentinels are one of the coolest things aesthetically in the game
3 Likes
Caverns of time expansion. I imagine dath’remar fighting malfurion to be one of the most epic battles in wow history. Dath’remar fire incarnate the first mage to bind the Phoenix to his will and malfurion nature’s avatar. The ideals of both being understandable and easily to empathize with. Malfurion has seen the desturction unchecked magic can bring, and dath’remar sees his people oppressed with bigotry and hatred for what he sees as a jealousy of their power and ability. It would be epic
5 Likes
i wish blizz would expand on what actually happened during the long vigil tho, the sentinels are one of the coolest things aesthetically in the game
You and me both, Spuds. Night Elven history is fascinating stuff, even if I think its authoritarian bits are dark.
I attribute this to the abolition of the old caste system (highborn, lowborn divisions), which involved the ban on arcane magic yes, the “isolationism” which really just means “non interventionist, non expansionist” to me…and yeah the devotion to cultivating druidism probably allowed them as a whole to be more prosperous as a forest dwelling people…
I notice you don’t respond to the gender roles point. Did Malfurion’s wisdom reveal that female devotion to Druidism just isn’t that helpful to a forest dwelling people?
My understanding was that the Kaldorei banned arcane magic to hide Azeroth from the Legion and to prevent the likes of another Azshara or Illidan from abusing the Well–and that caste system issues were a secondary concern.
But say we accept that concern. Are you saying it’s a good idea to strip someone of their most prized skills and abilities, even of their passions, just because they might use that power to pursue privilege? What if there were a Jaina among the Night Elves? Was she just supposed to suck it up for the authoritarian will of their religious exarchs?
Many of the Shen’dralar Quel’dorei have returned to Darnassus since Cataclysm, and Night Elves again cultivate arcane magic–yet the druidic culture doesn’t seem to be imploding on itself.
What you’re describing makes me think of the Federation following the Prime Directive. They don’t seek empire, but they do seek knowledge, trade, and understanding of the outside world, and to grow in response to that exploration.
This does not describe the Kaldorei, who managed millennia of peace, sure–but also millennia of virtually nil progress or change, and who had virtually no interest in the world outside their vigil.
1 Like
I didn’t respond to it cause I didn’t have much to say about it. Good or bad. In any case, they have changed it now and i’m unsure how strict it actually ever was what with the retcons and all.
I think is a little more complex than that but yes. They were openly threatening such things anyways. Arcane storm and all that. There was other avenues for them to apply themselves to… just not the one that had collapsed their society and was associated with a disposed aristocracy.
I think the two are closely intertwined tho.
After 10,000 years of its suppression, of course. The new regime has consolidated itself so thoroughly that the Shen’dralar really have no way of uprooting it anymore and they can actually apply their use of arcane magic properly. At the time that was not the case. The new culture had to be consolidated first, and that couldn’t be done with the disposed arcane users openly threatening and disobeying it at every turn.
this millennia of peace was achieved by a huge progressive change in their society to begin with… there have also been multiple changes since the end of WC3…
1 Like
You don’t have anything bad to say about gender segregation the Night Elves themselves eventually got rid of? Really? Come on Spuds, if you really feel neutral about that, you need to give me more of a reason why.
There was other avenues for them to apply themselves to…
“Listen, Marie Curie, you can do anything else, but this physics and chemistry stuff is witchcraft and can get you burned at the stake.”
They were openly threatening such things anyways. Arcane storm and all that.
Maybe my memory fails me, but I was under the impression that happened after his Holiness the Purple Pope made arcane magic a heresy punishable by death. And if that’s case–well, I kind of like people willing to rebel against religious authoritarians.
The new culture had to be consolidated first [by crushing military might ignoring important individual freedoms]
Perhaps if Sylvanas wins and consolidates the rule of the Horde, and hundreds of years from now Humans and Night Elves and Orcs prosper under the Horde’s one world government, we’ll consider her the wisest faction leader.
1 Like
YES!!! I can’t like this enough. This really helps create a different flavor of paladin/Light user. Which I think is always good to have. It would highlight a Light-based culture that isn’t refugees (Draenei) or seemingly devout (Stormwind) or zealous (Scarlet), bur also rational and logical.
Approaching the Light as it truly is: power to be wielded. Almost an academic approach, too, not a religious or reverent one. The Light wouldn’t be holding them back.
And just because it’s a pragmatic approach wouldn’t make them “evil,” it would simply affirm their position that they strip the emotion from the power, the emotional properties of the Light (aka ‘86 the Holy prefix mostly) and seek to approach it as a particle physicist approaches photons. In this “elevated” state of understanding the Light (in their eyes), they can still use the Light for “good,” as far as they’re concerned.
Ok, euphoric - probably incoherent - rant over. Maybe.
Edit to add: sorry for potentially de-railing the thread. This post was compelling enough for me to expand on it with my thoughts.
1 Like
Isn’t this more or less what gnome priests do?