Making a melee spec bomb-oriented is really stupid

[Rambõ-tichondrius]

Did you even read what I posted lmao.

I am not one of these “trust blizzard guys they’re perfect they’ll fix it” I criticize them all the time. I also praise what I think is good, it’s not all bad, they do some things good.

All I said was don’t look at spec build dps numbers in the beta. Thats like the last thing they do is tweak damage numbers. The post I responded to said the only viable build in beta was a boomstick centric build, but that “viable build” metric there is based on dps number comparison, something that is basically useless in the beta.

I don’t think a whole lot will change fundamentally about spec or class design from beta till live, the idea that if something is broken or poorly designed and it will be fixed before beta is over is an optimistic at best idea, I agree. All they basically do is tune numbers, which is all I talked about.

[Kýros-moon-guard]

@Asthelon-area-52

No they’re not

Skinning animals

Using their venoms

Getting animal trophies

But yeah, we are protectors of nature lads !

I think this one is confused because hunters tame and train their pets and use that as if they were druids or something along those lines.

[Syegfryed-tol-barad (Syegfryed)]

@Rambõ-tichondrius

Bombardiers are known for using a shotgun???

Missing the point again

@Rambõ-tichondrius

It is a melee hunter. Melee attacks are a core part of the rotation.

Right now we only have raptor strike and thats it for the rotation

@Rambõ-tichondrius

Your idea that it “should be focused on melee skills” is just that, your idea. Y

mf, that is literally blizzard idea that YOU brought up yourself LOL

@Rambõ-tichondrius

Yeah his fixation on Legion as some pure pet melee version of survival is just hilarious.

I never said that, but its easier to lie and just ignore the point and walk away am i right

@Rambõ-tichondrius

The literal first trailer we ever saw, the first player class shown in WoW is the iconic dwarf hunter sporting a gun.

And that is a MM hunter or a BM, gun or bow is their main weapon

That shouldnt be the main skill of the MELEE survival spec, when we have a 2h or two one handed weapons

[Asthelon-area-52]

@Syegfryed-tol-barad

Right now we only have raptor strike and thats it for the rotation

You use Raptor Strike and Raptor swipe more than you use non melee abilities. I dont think you have actually played midnight survival at all.

[Ashraelan-emerald-dream]

Yeah sorry we cannot just assume all WoW Hunters as protectors of the nature. That is a wild stretch even for me. Those that want to be protectors of the Wilds do tend to be the Hunters and Druids but that just isn’t all inclusive.

Neither can we blindly assume based on the brought up original trailer that all hunters are dwarves who use guns and have a bear for a pet. Or that the original trailer featured a gun that all hunters must be gun based. Or that we should ignore other sides of the Hunter fantasy because of it. That gun had an axe head on it too.

There is a plethora of evidence that supports the primal side of Hunter.

Hunters as Druids
Hunters have long had a deep connection with Nature and it has allowed them to do some amazing things. Things that we would consider Druidic in nature.

A few things Hunters use nature magic for:
Taming wild beasts
Healing our Pets
Resurrecting our Pets
Seeing through the eyes of our Pets
Seeing 5000 yards away
Sending flying screeching green eagles 40 yards away.
During Legion Survival Hunters were seen as the Champion of the Wild Gods
As Survival we worked directly with the Wild God Ohn’ara

It is obvious there is a good deal of Druidic fantasy crossover.
Much like there is crossover between Priests and Paladins.
Hunters are to Druids what Paladins are to Priests. Paladins and Priests use the Light in different ways. Hunters use nature differently than Druids.

Tools
It isnt that we (most of ) us are wholeheartedly against the utilization of things like WFB (of which I have posted retraction statements in favor of and reasonings for). It is that with the addition of things like Boomstick and FFP we are seeing a hunter that is shoved so far in one direction of fantasy and tries so hard to ignore the other side that it has very little in common with the core hunter fantasy nor the fantasy we signed up for back in Legion. And worse, a Hunter that has little in the way of things that make them special any more.

Yes, Legion had a number of explosive devices, we have been over them with great exhaustion. But there was a balance. There were just slightly more melee and pet tandem abilities and options for melee abilities as there were for explosives and options for explosives. It was more expressive as a class fantasy back when it was more balanced between those two sides. Primal Nature and Rough Ingenuity.

We don’t have that going into Midnight. We have one melee cooldown. One melee focus dump. One pet focused ability(that we are forced to press for focus). And Three explosives. That is one heavily tilted fantasy.

My personal gripe with Midnight SV has always been that shoved down my throat fantasy and the lack of anything special about those abilities. The entire new direction of Survival does nothing to make them special and set apart from other classes.

These items are not innate to the Hunter like the Light is to a paladin, the elements are to a shaman, the arcane is to a mage, fel is to a warlock, or void/shadow is to a priest. You cannot take the rage away from a Warrior any more than you could take the cunning from a rogue. Boomstick and FFP, they arent an innate part of what makes the Hunter a Hunter. So why are they now the chief focus of it?

Take the boomstick and ffp away from the Midnight SV Hunter and what are you?

If you answer, “well if you took those tools away they would still have their ingenuity and make more tools.” You my friend have described not a hunter but a Tinker.
Which would be such a cool class if done correctly.
I wholeheartedly support a Tinker Class.

I would argue instead that it is the ability to have such a deep connection with Primal Nature and yet not lose their humanity that sets Hunters apart from other classes. All of the benefits of the Wilds without being lost to it.

It is a very narrow path to find, balancing primal tandem pet fighting fury and ingeniously helpful tools, but hard shoving tools like Boomstick and FFP as is currently being done in Midnight is not the way.

[Asthelon-area-52]

You keep referring to FFP as some like premier focus of the spec and I think that’s pretty dishonest…we have a grand total of 3 talents that reference FFP…it has a minute CD and super low damage, so it’s not like it’s going to look or feel impressive…

before you freak out and put words in my mouth again, please direct your attention to the midnight feedback thread where i’ve been asking for FFP to be replaced by a melee ability for weeks

[Arahgon-maiev]

they wont because they’ll see we’re asking for things that would benefit them and that will hurt their victim mentality

[Photonfervor-ravencrest (Photonfervor)]

@Rambõ-tichondrius

The whole friendly fire argument is weak.

That is a gameplay design decision, has nothing to do with class fantasy.

Why is friendly fire from bombs immersion breaking but it’s ok for a mage to flamestrike on top of themselves or teammates and not light them on fire? Or a warrior to blade storm beside his allies and not chop them up. Or a hunter to volley on top of friend and not skewer them with arrows.

The lack of friendly fire is consistent across all classes and fantasies. Picking on wildfire bombs for that just feels bad faith.

It’s not about expecting absolute realism. We understand and accept that WoW is an MMO that groups a lot of players together in relatively close quarters to combat powerful enemies. If friendly fire between players was active, bosses wouldn’t even need abilities.

We accept that a Mage incurs no damage from his Fire attacks as part of his mastery of elemental magic. Just as he gains more power by literally engulfing himself in flames or protects himself from harm by encasing himself in a massive block of ice. It’s not even close to being realistic, but within the fantasy of the game and the Mage class, it fits thematically and we accept it.

Hunters, while possibly utilizing light nature magic for feats such as Freezing Trap, Mend Pet, Revive Pet, etc, are not known as masters of magic. The idea of Hunter is much more grounded and physical, where the exceptional abilities come from keen accuracy and heightened agility, but also a deep kinship with the beasts of nature.

And because of this, it is difficult to believe that we would utilize explosives and wildfire, over which we have little to no control, in close proximity to ourselves and the beasts with which we are supposed to share a deep bond. One could argue that a well-placed trap as a sort of last resort wouldn’t be out of place, but as a primary choice of weapon? It doesn’t make sense from a thematic standpoint.

[Ashraelan-emerald-dream]

@Asthelon-area-52

You keep referring to FFP as some like premier focus of the spec and I think that’s pretty dishonest…we have a grand total of

Dishonest?!
Out of all of that, this is what you choose to engage with?

Fine lets take a look at it a little deeper.

It has more focus from Devs than Takedown.

It has 5 talents supporting or interacting with it right now according to Wowhead. I dont have the Beta
Blackrock Munitions
Explosives Expert
Grenade Juggler
Wildfire Imbuement
and
Flamebreak

We have 3 Specialization talents and 1 Hero Talent that support Take Down.
Twin Fangs
Savagery
Flanked
and
Stampede

Savagery (CD) and Twin Fangs (Recover Resource) could be baked into one talent to match the power point of Grenade Juggler (Additional Charge, Ability Recharge) but they decided to make it a total of 3 talent points. Seems one sided.

We also have this line from the Developers notes which is very telling.

@Linxy

Additionally, we’re leaning into the rugged, crafty, and bomb-centric fantasy we explored in The War Within with a new Fire grenade called Flamefang Pitch,

Doing damage, looking, and feeling are all things that are up to change. It may not even make it through to launch. But it does tell us where the devs mindset is at. A new ability with supporting talents that leans into the BOMB CENTRIC fantasy.

@Asthelon-area-52

before you freak out and put words in my mouth again, please direct your attention to the midnight feedback thread where i’ve been asking for FFP to be replaced by a melee ability for weeks

Yes I see you, keep doing that thing.

[Asthelon-area-52]

@Ashraelan-emerald-dream

Dishonest?!
Out of all of that, this is what you choose to engage with?

Yes.

@Ashraelan-emerald-dream

We have 3 Specialization talents and 1 Hero Talent that support Take Down.

You forgot Lunar Calling, Moonlight Chakram, and Can’t Miss Won’t Miss.

@Ashraelan-emerald-dream

I dont have the Beta

yeah I can tell. Nobody is ever going to pick FFP because it’s extraordinarily weak and super obnoxious to play with. If you use it in the most optimal way possible, it’s not even 3% of your total damage. If you think this is enough to consider FFP the “focus” of the spec, then like I said…that’s a dishonest framing.

There are also 4 talents that directly interact with auto-attack speed, so nearly at the quantity of talents that interact with FFP. I wonder if that means auto attacks are the focus of the spec too

[Syegfryed-tol-barad (Syegfryed)]

@Ashraelan-emerald-dream

Doing damage, looking, and feeling are all things that are up to change. It may not even make it through to launch. But it does tell us where the devs mindset is at. A new ability with supporting talents that leans into the BOMB CENTRIC fantasy.

I hate the blue quote you brought here, cause it shows how pathetic blizz decisions are, they just do crap they want regardless of what it was before and how players will react

Same reasoning was given to MM when they remove tis pet “you know, we just dont want MM with pet anymore and now we want that MM fantasy is about having a stupid dumb bird”

And we still had goobers and mouthbreathers defending it

@Ashraelan-emerald-dream

Yes I see you, keep doing that thing.

He is also in the beta forum proving zero feedback outside being obtuse about bombs and dumbstick, he is on purpose disrupting the feedback threat so they dont change anything, very scummy

[Arahgon-maiev]

@Photonfervor-ravencrest

And because of this, it is difficult to believe that we would utilize explosives and wildfire, over which we have little to no control, in close proximity to ourselves and the beasts with which we are supposed to share a deep bond. One could argue that a well-placed trap as a sort of last resort wouldn’t be out of place, but as a primary choice of weapon? It doesn’t make sense from a thematic standpoint.

this is such an insane cope, especially because your ignoring the magical feats of hunters throughout multiple expansions

but to save us the trouble let me list the most egregious current example of hunters magical prowess

aspect of the eagle and turtle

saying that hunter has no control over its explosives or anything because no magical ability, while at the same vein having no issues with survival hunter summoning green eagles from it weapon and a impenetrable green shield. then frankly no amount of facts anyone can say that can change your mind.

this isnt talking about the various abilities from the past like wild spirits and blink strikes

[Keytiana-stormrage]

I see the Hunter of WoW like Kraven (Spider-Man). Not Netflix Kraven, the comics. Everything is your tool to be used and your game is yours to conquer.

Kill or be Killed.

[Ashraelan-emerald-dream]

Talk about dishonest. I literally show you the post by the devs on how ffp is being labeled by them as part of their focus for survival and you dismiss it. You wrap it up in numbers and viability while we are looking at what the devs are pushing. You show once again your inability to stay on topic.

Thats what dishonesty looks like.

I cant flag you enough.

[Asthelon-area-52]

I like how you ignored me pointing out there are more takedown talents than the one you mentioned and me pointing out that there are nearly as many auto-attack talents as the “focus” you mentioned. You wonder why I called you dishonest when you pretend there are less takedown talents than they actually are?

Wonder why you ignored those and just decided to be in your permanent upset state?

@Ashraelan-emerald-dream

I literally show you the post by the devs on how ffp is being labeled by them as part of their focus for survival and you dismiss it

@Linxy

Additionally, we’re leaning into the rugged, crafty, and bomb-centric fantasy we explored in The War Within with a new Fire grenade called Flamefang Pitch,

Furthermore, they didn’t say “this is the part of the focus” they said “we’re leaning into the existing fantasy” and you chose to get mad at that. Again…dishonest.

[Ashraelan-emerald-dream]

Pretend to miss takedown talents in Sentinel? No. Forget? Yes.

Reading comprehension is not your forte it seems.

Don’t worry it’ll get better once you get into high school.

For the rest of the thinking world, when we read phrases like:

‘we continue to refine and focus Survival Hunter’s Fantasy’
and
‘We are going to lean into…bomb centric…with a new fire grenade called FFP.’

we come to the understanding that Hunter Devs are pushing for a particular focus.

Furthermore, Blizz themselves said they were putting a greater focus on Auto-attacks, everyones auto attacks got a buff. So yes there will be auto attack talents thrown around. Does that mean all classes are going back to playing like classic? No. But it is a focus of their going forward.

Again, you young child, are dishonest beyond measure.

[Urukeye-area-52]

Nah man, you’re just straight up dishonest and trying to be mad at shadows. Do you even have beta??

[Asthelon-area-52]

If you’re going to try to argue with someone please come with the facts on hand. Blizzard never said FFP is the focus of the spec, that’s something you made up to get mad at once again.

How about you play beta before you get mad at the “focus” of the spec.

[Treesummoner-emerald-dream]

Survival has ONE. Count it, ONE melee ability on beta.

And it’s supposed to be a melee spec. It’s garbage. Blizzard obviously has no clue what to do with it either mechanically or thematically.

The only players defending this steaming pile of minimum effort are contrarians or white knights.

[Urukeye-area-52]

our apex talent??

dude you dont need multiple buttons that do the same thing, especially since mongoose bite was regulated to “press this for wild bomb cdr”

granted they should make ffp a fire melee attack