Make An'she/Belore A Thing

[Baalsamael-turalyon (Baalsamael)]

@Velskàr-stormrage

Or in this case, Elementals, which Al’ar is actually classified as.

Yes but we now have Light Elementals and Death Elementals and etc

And we noticeably did not see a single phoenix in the Firelands

[Velskàr-stormrage]

@Baalsamael-turalyon

So the Sunwell was originally Elune-y, but post-BC was tied to An’she.

Well, Dath’remar Sunstrider did take inspiration from the original Kaldorei and the Well of Eternity when he named the font the Sunwell…

[Faranoth-nordrassil]

@Baalsamael-turalyon

So the Sunwell was originally Elune-y,

Funny name for a moonwell

[Baalsamael-turalyon (Baalsamael)]

To be fair we do have conflicting or at least multiple ways of Moonwell creation. WoD’s Alliance Garrison’s moonwell was some normal water and a moon rock and blessing.

[Velskàr-stormrage]

@Baalsamael-turalyon

…we noticeably did not see a single phoenix in the Firelands

That is actually interesting, now that I think about it; literally the one boss that could even be considered a “phoenix” was Alysrazor, and even she was merely a green dragon that had been transformed by Ragnaros.

There’s definitely a clear distinction between the full-on “Fire Elemental” birds used by the Elemental Lords vs. the more “Sunlight-based” phoenixes used by the Sin’dorei—I want to say part of that’s also strictly due to their use of Arcane magic, which you can clearly see trailing behind Al’ar.

[Velskàr-stormrage]

@Baalsamael-turalyon

To be fair we do have conflicting or at least multiple ways of Moonwell creation. WoD’s Alliance Garrison’s moonwell was some normal water and a moon rock and blessing.

Which is especially interesting considering the newest addition of former Night Warriors from a planet other than Azeroth.

Which tells us that Elune—or at the very least, part of her power—could plausibly be found/used on multiple planets, and the same might be said for Belore, if their powers are linked more so to celestial bodies (moon, sun) rather than being exclusive to Azerothian races (which we now know is not the case with the Night Warriors we meet in Ardenweald).

[Baalsamael-turalyon (Baalsamael)]

@Velskàr-stormrage

Which tells us that Elune—or at the very least, part of her power—could plausibly be found/used on multiple planets, and the same might be said for Belore, if their powers are linked more so to celestial bodies (moon, sun) rather than being exclusive to Azerothian races

Yup, we actually have magical attributions to every celestial event if you think about it:

• New Moon = Night Warrior ritual
• Full Moon = Mother Moon/White Lady; prayed to by Kul Tirans for safe voyage as per lost sailor’s memorial
• Crescent Moon = used mostly by Druids on Azeroth, by the Shadowmoon Clan on Draenor
• Solar Eclipse (Moon in front of Sun) = Elune taking a soul
• Normal Sun = Tauren An’she beliefs; Spiritwalking therein; Rezan; Apexis powers and Rukhmar; Some Druid stuff otherwise
• Lunar Eclipse (Sun turning the Moon Red) = Hakkar and Bwonsamdi summoning the dead; pseudo Blood Moon among orcs on Draernor in Tanaan
• “Embrace” (Azeroth’s two moons in front of eachother) = empowerment of a Blue Dragon Aspect

@Velskàr-stormrage

That is actually interesting, now that I think about it; literally the one boss that could even be considered a “phoenix” was Alysrazor, and even she was merely a green dragon that had been transformed by Ragnaros.

Yeah the lack of a phoenix in the whole of the firelands for me was always a red flag that blizzard wants to gesture at something but is unwilling to do so explicitly.

@Velskàr-stormrage

I want to say part of that’s also strictly due to their use of Arcane magic, which you can clearly see trailing behind Al’ar.

Noticeably, while the phoenix power was universal to Belf Magisters, it is also tied to Felo’melorn ingame.

And Felo’melorn was revealed in a dream

According to rumors passed down through generations, a young Dath’Remar dreamed of the weapon Felo’melorn. In that dream, the arcane blade burned like the sun and dispatched so many enemies that it created a swift-flowing river of blood. Dath’Remar would later recount the specifics of the blade’s appearance to the renowned magesmith Luminarian as he crafted the weapon on his arcane forge.

[Faelia-ravenholdt]

@Velskàr-stormrage

Which tells us that Elune—or at the very least, part of her power—could plausibly be found/used on multiple planets, and the same might be said for Belore

Makes sense also if Elune and Belore are trans-dimensional beings, they are representations of Primordial Light (we’re going to assume Elune is more tied to the Light then Void), which is certainly a factor even in the Shadowlands, their power touches every part of creation.

[Baalsamael-turalyon (Baalsamael)]

To note: Night Warrior Tyrande has been able to summon a cover of darkness, and her AOE in Torghast is Shadow damage. New Moons are quite literally a shadow over the moon.

I don’t think it’s every part. I think, perhaps, the First Ones follow a “All Magic Minus One” rule.

So it would be Light, Life, Order, Shadow, Death, but no Chaos, for Elune.

And if the Sun is a “true opposite”, then it would be Life, Light, Chaos, Death, Shadow, but no Order, for An’she.

Life First One would be Shadow, Order, Life, Light, Chaos, but no Death.

Dark/Death First One would be Order, Shadow, Death, Chaos, Light, but no Life.

Etc

[Faelia-ravenholdt]

@Baalsamael-turalyon

And if the Sun is a “true opposite”, then it would be Life, Light, Chaos, Death, Shadow, but no Order, for An’she.

Unless An’she is revealed to be playful “Loki” like god, I don’t think the the concept of “no Order” would apply to him.

[Velskàr-stormrage]

@Baalsamael-turalyon

To note: Night Warrior Tyrande has been able to summon a cover of darkness, and her AOE in Torghast is Shadow damage. New Moons are quite literally a shadow over the moon.

I don’t think it’s every part. I think, perhaps, the First Ones follow a “All Magic Minus One” rule.

So it would be Light, Life, Order, Shadow, Death, but no Chaos, for Elune.

That’s definitely plausible; we know that Night Elf Priests/Priestesses, despite using Light magic for gameplay purposes, are still technically considered Priests/Priestesses of the Moon, lore-wise.

And then we’re told that the Night Warrior is “Elune’s darkest incarnation,” meaning that—much like the deities of many RL cultures—Elune has the potential of appearing in different guises, some more merciful/vengeful than others.

[Baalsamael-turalyon (Baalsamael)]

@Faelia-ravenholdt

Unless An’she is revealed to be playful “Loki” like god, I don’t think the the concept of “no Order” would apply to him.

I mean too much Order is bad, it’s a restriction to creativity and flow.

@Velskàr-stormrage

And then we’re told that the Night Warrior is “Elune’s darkest incarnation,” meaning that—much like the deities of many RL cultures

And likewise the Sun is always tied to both Life/Light but also Death/Darkness, with Blood Moons being associated to the Sun.

[Faelia-ravenholdt]

@Baalsamael-turalyon

I mean too much Order is bad, it’s a restriction to creativity and flow.

Possibly, though that is sort of the domain of the void. Not saying it couldn’t work but we’d have to know a LOT more of his personality.

Regardless, I now kind of want to see him as a flighty, child-like character who’s always off on some adventure or something and Elune’s always chasing him down.

[Velskàr-stormrage]

@Faelia-ravenholdt

@Baalsamael-turalyon

I mean too much Order is bad, it’s a restriction to creativity and flow.

Possibly, though that is sort of the domain of the void.

Not necessarily—look at Xe’ra, Alternate Yrel, and the Scarlet Crusade, for example.

Or even the rogue Titan Keepers, Mechagnomes, and King Mechagon trying to “cure” the “Curse” of Flesh.

Too much Order is just as destructive as too much Chaos.
Balance in all things, young one.

[Faelia-ravenholdt]

@Velskàr-stormrage

Too much Order is just as destructive as too much Chaos.

Oh no, you misunderstand.

I just meant that the Void is the champion of unrestricted possibilities.

I wasn’t arguing that Order can’t be tyrannical.

[Velskàr-stormrage]

@Faelia-ravenholdt

…the Void is the champion of unrestricted possibilities.

Sure, but then the Void being “the voice of a thousand truths” is just as deceptive, because it effectively sees all possible realities ala the “Multiple Worlds Theory” of quantum physics—thus, “everything is true.”

Which is problematic for mortals on a realistic level, because:

A) Even the most powerful sorcerers can’t handle that much knowledge/information all at once

B) There’s no way for most mortals, if any, to know exactly what will happen in this reality vs. others, at least not for certain. Even the Bronze/Infinite Dragonflights have been shown to be imperfect in their reading of the timelines.

[Baalsamael-turalyon (Baalsamael)]

Sun casts a Shadow after all in fact I’d argue you need the sun or moon to cast any shadow at all naturally, otherwise it’s just darkness

[Velskàr-stormrage]

The closer you get to the light, the greater your shadow becomes.

—Unknown Voice, Kingdom Hearts

[Faelia-ravenholdt]

@Baalsamael-turalyon

Sun casts a Shadow after all in fact I’d argue you need the sun or moon to cast any shadow at all naturally, otherwise it’s just darkness

Well, if Elune can have a terrifying vengeful side, I guess An’she could have a deceptive side…

Just not sure what the Tauren would have to say about that.

[Baalsamael-turalyon (Baalsamael)]

@Faelia-ravenholdt

Well, if Elune can have a terrifying vengeful side, I guess An’she could have a deceptive side…

Just not sure what the Tauren would have to say about that.

Imagining him as the Smith/Inventor of the Pantheon sets it up so he’s ultimately the one behind Bwonsamdi and Rezan/Felo’melorn’s vision (as both constructor of worlds, tombs, and empires), both A’lar/Rukhmar and Hakkar/Sethe (as Sun and Blood Moon), both the Titan-forged (including Gnomes) and the Trolls/Orcs (via being the “father” of Khazgoroth, Norgannon, and Aggramar)