You’re comparing Nerftank, an MDI champion and telling him he isn’t doing the maximum amount of damage?
Please explain to me what the minimum and maximum are and what he isn’t doing correctly.
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Trash, swipe swipe, Trash, swipe, Moonfire proc the last one.
To preface this, I can only speak from the perspective of the guardian druid. That being said, I agree with this being a good bit over tuned. Keeping it simple, I am seeing the following things:
During Legion you had legendary gear that allowed a player to counter certain mechanics within the tower and/or you had the ability to increase gear lvl to blunt some of the more punishing aspects of the event. Both these aspects have been removed.
Though I am not a number cruncher, one can look at videos to see that scaling for health etc. increased by a decent margin (and remains even after the nerf). Using the video below (view at 7:40), you can see that the terrors can be killed in only three swipes vs the thrash, swipe, swipe, incomp, swipe, thrash one would do now.
Currently, a tank-based challenge is very reliant on DPSing a boss down in a particular amount of time to avoid certain mechanics in phase 2 to possibly survive. IMO, that sounds more like a DPS challenge and not a tank challenge. Last I checked if I went into a Mythic + group and started to sunfire enemies they would not be happy, most people want me to live, keep aggro, know my routes, and when to kick/position.
Lastly, to pivot to the “this is meant to be hard” discussion, I find they usually land in one of a few camps.
- You beat the same encounter with a different class and you are comparing your experience to a different class (aka, death knight saying they beat it easily to a guardian druid). They are not one to one.
- You managed to beat a different encounter and are comparing your experience to a completely different encounter. (aka, a fury warrior comparing to a guardian druid). Totally different mechanics with different scaling etc., not one to one.
- You have a/multiple “friends” or a guild mate that beat the encounter and state it is easy. You have done nothing to experience the encounter, so you have no perspective.
- You managed to beat the encounter after x-runs and state people should learn to get better with one’s spec and stop complaining.
The first three I can (for the most part) chalk up to ignorance, inability to see a different perspective, or just trolling. The last one is the confusing one to me. It is as if the value you gain must be at the expense of another. “The bear form only has value if other do not have it”. Why? Is it your ego? Your lack of accomplishment elsewhere?
It is a solo event, with different color pixels or pixel forms as its rewards. You beat it on hard mode, be proud you did that. Does it hurt your present if it gets nerfed into the ground so others can get it? Why does this community always seem to need to form all content around this “alpha mentality” where you stomp out any version of something that would allow everyone to share in a reward? The entire game is basically molded around “git good” (PVP, Mythic +, Mythic Raids) aka all of end game. Why does it matter if the solo content does not have a Mythic Raiding level of difficulty?
A game is meant to be fun people. If a major chunk of people claim they are banging their heads against their desk due to frustration that does not sound like fun to me.
Tank Mage Tower Challenge Guide | Patch 9.1.5 Legion Timewalking (Guardian Druid PoV) - YouTube
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As the game moves toward increasing FOMO, these are the type of people it attracts, and their numbers are rising. I’ve never met a person in real life who collected things for any reason other than because they liked having those things, but the game seems to be full of people who like having rare things only because it makes them feel superior to those who don’t have them - and some of them enjoy using those rare items to make newer players feel bad about the game and toxic players who behave that way.
You forgot a couple of categories:
- Plays the game at nowhere near the level needed, but thinks it should be really hard.
- Doesn’t play the game at all.
Although both of these could be forum-only alts of players who maintain those characters for deniability.
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You should probably delete that.
Or we just think the difficulty is not that out of wack that it requires big nerfs, another 5% maybe to Krull hp, but that is about it.
Asking for major hp nerf is the same as asking to get the skin for free, half of the challenge is doing good dps and getting rid of that element would make it so is not even the same challenge anymore.
This was never suppose to be a “everyone” gets a free new xmog, they advertise since day 1 as a test of skill an mastery of your class, even in the return post. Is people that were expecting an easy challenge that need to adjust to it.
What do two videos of bears in Heroic Tomb gear have to do with the Nighthold release difficulty?
Your videos are 916 and 918 ilvl, and the Nighthold mythic gear was 900. If you want to compare apples to apples, find some videos of people at ivl 890-900.
While I don’t think tuning them to be equivalent to the release difficulty was a good idea, I’ve completed the Prot Paladin and Destro Lock in the new challenges so far and found them very similar to what they were in April 2017. A better argument than “they are overtuned” would be to ask why they were tuned to match release difficulty instead of ToS difficulty. If I recall correctly, they assuaged people who were mad at how hard they were at their launch by stating that they were really designed for people in Tomb gear. If that’s the case, maybe that should have been the launch difficulty metric this time.
2 Likes
Yes, actually, 4.5 minutes for p1 of the warrior challenge is very slow right now. For example, on my warrior (also in just slands gear), Variss took 3:20 on the kill and the whole fight took 5:30.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/HWaXnp3cYxRLVMgP#fight=38&type=damage-taken&hostility=1 (I died to annihilate 5, but you can see from Kruul’s damage taken that he took his full health pool in damage, so he died too).
That’s not a slight on his ability as a player, though. What’s more likely is that since the mage tower encounter is much more forgiving nowadays from a survival standpoint (seriously, compare how much damage some things do in the two videos, e.g. netherstomp), there was no need to optimize. He was able to kill it taking 4.5 minutes in p1, and might have had a relatively low pull count and never had to practice p1 enough to improve that DPS.
Meanwhile, 3 minutes total for the original challenge feels extremely fast by the standards at the time (well, until the encounter was completely trivialized by gear). I don’t know if that video is pre- all the nerfs (I don’t know what the boss health values were for warrior on release), or what kind of gear the video’s in, but you definitely found a very fast old example.
As a final comment, as someone who did the guardian mage tower day 1 (in 900 ilvl gear+no 4th gold artifact trait), the 9.1.5 mage tower is laughably easy by comparison. The only thing that was sort of comparable was how long Kruul took to kill, and then that got nerfed.
Fake news, fake vaccine.
More like fake intellect, cut from the same cloth i see.
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I have no idea what the minimum is.
I’m going to go look at nerf bear kill, because im familiar with bear, not warrior. but the ideas are mainly the same.
But a very simple baseling of comparison would be to compare one ability, or one segment of abilities, maybe 5 seconds of rotation. and see how many of those are need to kill the boss. like how many individual mangles would kill the boss? this isn’t perfect, but it gives a better context than using player health.
in very short… there are people who have done the fight in like 3 minutes. that clearly shows higher dps. now those people have used special gear sets, while nerf had shadowlands gear.
Now the fact that nerf took so long to me actually states how much better of a tank he is. the longer you go, the more chance for mistake, the more pressure, the harder the fight is.
first primary point is, many fast kills have used heart of the wild. 5 min cd, very strong. helps get through the first phase much faster.
secondly, he in some cases multi moonfires eyes, when he should be able to use only one global, this is a dps loss on the boss.
barkskin before they reach you
Thrash swipe (here i usually try to moonfire the boss) roar, thrash. To me i count that as 4 globals on the adds. maybe sure you are autoing the adds as well. if you have any enchants that proc frontal damage, those can help you skip a swing.
In raids though, there are many chances for you to do decent damage to the boss while not being attacked, although personally i heal in those breaks.
the connection you make here makes no sense to me. someone telling another person that they too can complete it with practice doesn’t sound like ego or anything. its supportive.
However there are a ton on this forum who don’t want help, and dont want to be told that it’s possible. many claim the challenge is impossible in shadowlands gear. which is false. I’ve seen many claim to be doing the fight perfectly and still failing,
But the common factor is that they often (not always) are not looking for help.
The mage tower got nerfed before i got my kill. I wish it was not nerfed so i could have gotten it when it was at its hardest. if it gets nerfed again after now, when i go back to try again with a new setup or talent choice, it will again be a different experience.
Not if it was implemented for the just the mage tower…
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Mage tower is the biggest disappointment in a couple of expansions loaded with almost nothing but disappointment. Give these devs a chance, and they are certain to let you down.
MT should be balanced around LFR. Those folks already get denied most of the content and transmog items in the game and they probably make up the vast majority of the player base. Looking cool keeps them playing. Being this frustrated will make them quit.
The way MT is now. I am done. It’s possible with the right gear and luck combination (every fight has an element of luck that will either wipe you or not). It’s just not worth it.
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Really? I collect swords. I’m not about to try to go on a crusade or anything, I just think they’re neat.
Edit:
Wait… I think I misread you. I’m still leaving it though, I’m not deleting my dum
All of the tryhard wonks can’t help but argue in bad faith with the false dichotomy that any nerf or change equals “no challenge”, “giving it away”, “demanding things for free” and so forth.
If I asked them is this color (rgb(0, 255, 0)) green? They would most likely say yes.
How about (rgb(0, 255, 25)?
Them: No that’s blue!!!
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Mythic Sylvanas fell in fewer attempts than many folks have done in the mage tower. Anyone who argues it’s tuned correctly for any fight is underselling themselves.
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The weird part I don’t get is that the “Challenge”, was the real mage-tower in Legion, is that not the real badge of honor? The thing no one can get anymore?
The mentality of people who love the smell of their own farts astounds me.
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You’re arguing in bad faith yourself though. Several people, who even accomplished stuff, said some hotfixes are needed. And some hotfixes were put. It’s just not the ones you would want. People are after all demanding half HP nerfs.
Neither Agatha or Tugar fights (ones I did) needed hot fixes, and they didn’t get them either. Yet people are asking for them to be nerfed.
Then they aren’t the dunces I am refering to are they?
I dont mind wiping and learning the fight. What irritates me is that it plays completely differently from when i did it in legion. Im 36/36 doing this as a warebear. Nether horrors never took this long to kill and they didnt 1 shot vlen. Sometimes they move when starting the cast other times they freeze. Sometimes they lock on vlen other times they move. Drain life isnt casted on cd its casted randomly. Same thing with twisted reflections they cast it when they feel like it screw timers. They clearly over buffed it from the ptr im glad that some people can do it you’re a better player then me im fine with that. I just want to be able to do it like i did in legion. Dont want to be handed stuff but i want what i had back in legion if that mean turning on the legion leggos and bear tater then so be it.
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Yes, which is exactly my point.
Not the stuff you want.
So enlighten me then, what fixes do you want? If there’s bugs, sure. But what is there that legit needs fixing?