BLUF: 2x the DPS amount needed to do the same content as Nighthold gear on May 17th, 2017. Tomb of Sargeras was not released until June 20th, 2017. People are not wrong when they say that the current implementation is MUCH, much harder.
Taking Method Sco’s video 4-year old video and comparing it to Nerftanks recent kill
The Boss health relative to Sco’s health in 1.0 is a multiplier of (7.12x). Compare that to Nerftanks health in 2.0 is multiplier of (7.4x) .
This immediately presents a scaling issue as Variss starts with 4% less HP than the current implementation. To bring the difficulty inline Variss should now have ~73k HP.
Now lets take a look at the average DPS of each player. By the time Sco starts combat at 00:05 he kills Variss by 1:48 in the video in a time of 140s averaging 685k dps doing approximately 95M damage.
By the time Nerftank starts combat at 00:42 he kills Variss by 5:16 in the video taking a total time of 316s.
It took Nerftank 2.25x longer than Sco! To put that in perspective, if Sco continued his 685k dps in the original fight he would have to had done 216M vs 95M damage.
As a comparison of overall damage to the boss health in P1, Mage Tower 1.0s 95M overall damage / 39.2M health = a multiplier of 2.4x
Knowing this we can assume 2.4 x 77k = 184k
and 184k divided by 140s means one thing…
Neftank would need to be doing on average 1.3k dps to have the same time as Mage Tower 1.0 that’s DOUBLE what tanks currently can do.
As much as I would like to see them increase Prot Warriors damage by 2x the amount, it can’t happen. It would impact item scaling far beyond the Mage Tower and negatively effect other areas of the game.
However, the tanking challenge requiring 2x the damage as the initial design goes to show that the scaling is incredibly off.
Looking at old videos, it seems Bears can trash 3 times in Tomb gear and kill the Horrors easily, so they get more boomie uptime or just straight Luffa+Balance to trash at Variss from a safe distance.
Right now, having gotten to P2 once on my bear, I can safely say it takes at least 6-7 GCDs to clean up Horrors and that’s in full TW gear with a mix of everything (outside of an Iskar trinket).
Yeah… there was very obviously a last minute tuning pass done for the encounter. You can lookup Guardian Druids that completed the challenge in the PTR and see that they kill the adds in less than 3 swipes.
Another thing to note that proves my point. Look at how many stacks of Annihilation Sco has (2x) by the end of the encounter. Nerftank completed his with 4 stacks…
Unfortunately once again, double the damage or a 50% HP nerf to the encounter is needed.
There is no reason you would use the players health as a reference to how the bosses are scaled health wise. players health is subject to change, so any change in gear and suddenly your math changes too.
Taking average dps says nothing about the minimum damage needed, nor the maximum possible.
if either player just does better or worse, suddenly your math changes. Theres no baseline.
Pretty obvious you’re the troll here. Do you just stalk the forums 24/7 trying to debate anyone that has hard proof that MT is overtuned? Why even post at this point if you have nothing useful to say, lmao. I haven’t seen you make a single useful post.
It’s overtuned. It doesn’t take a genius to figure that out. Get that through your head.
Maybe if you read the post, you would see something.
Ahh yes, if “most everyone” agrees to something, I must fall in line.
And if “most everyone” you mean… the people who are the ones making the forum post… which is clearly a representation of the whole…
Also…
If you feel im always around, doesn’t that mean you’re also always around in the same posts, only to complain about overtuning that you have yet to back up.
If you feel im always around, doesn’t that mean you’re also always around in the same posts, only to complain about overtuning that you have yet to back up.
I backed it up with videos from Legion that show how much easier it was then. OP backed it up with some numbers. You tried to disprove that with… nothing. Where’s your evidence then that it isn’t overtuned?
In the videos from a few years ago one thrash or max two is all it took to down the nether adds. Now you need 5-6 globals. It’s not an opinion, it’s facts. Another fact is that tanks simply don’t output the same DPS in comparison to the boss health that they used to. We’re lacking legendaries, artifacts, abilities, etc.
Are you referring to a different thread or are you just op on an alt?
lets assume different thread. I dont know which video you’re refering to, but the ones from legion I’ve seen posted are from bears in gear from the patch after when mage tower comes out. that would be overgearing the fight and drastically changing your reference point for what the balancing looks like.
i’ve already posted why the numbers mean nothing. but you must have read that and ignored that. so… that’s on you. Theres no baseline. we don’t know the mins or maxes of any of the values. we don’t even know average values on ideal circumstances like patchwork style dps.
My evidence is clearly also the videos.
in the very first set of adds. it takes… WAY more than 2 thrashes to take down the adds. did we even watch the same video?
Hmm second set of adds also took over 5 globals.
starting to sound like opinion.
You got any real math to back that up? op didn’t do their math very well.
hotw is a very very strong cd.
While we have lost something we have gained others. A few shadowland trinkets are very strong, and many old world trinkets are even stronger.
In another thread where the op posted two vids, one from legion, one current, I’ve pointed out that in the legion version the boss was phased with 2 infernals while the current phased with 1, but both vids showed that kruul was taken to 20% health inside the drums window. That represents similar damage in burst windows, and that hotw p1 might represent more damage than legion legendaries did at the time.
i also point out the damage values of the 2nd annihilate and the relevent cds up, which shows the that the damage output from those smashes was somewhat similar percent wise.
If you actually want a link to those points, tomorrow i can find them, but if you’re like most and just wanna believe the “majority” then so be it as well.
Just got done with the bear challenge, it was hard, but I would say the healer one(at least on monk) was a lot harder overall. Took me around +30 tries to kill Krull, while I lost count on my mistweaver, if I had to guess it would be over 100 wipes.
I had a harder time back in Legion on my warrior, with over 70 wipes, so is not as bad compare to Nighthold or early Tomb.
Phase 1 is a joke, it was basically free and only deaths were trying to save too many orbs to have some advantages on phase 2, but around 3 they end up despawning anyway.
Having to survive around 3 annihilations was the norm back there, so the kill time would be around the same to me.
Variss is at 68% hp before he even has to deal with the first set of adds.
The adds just fold like they’re not even there.
He messes up and lets the adds cast like 10 times through the video and guess what, Velen still alive, and bear don’t care
tanks the second stack of annihilate with one ironfur stack and doesn’t even hit him for half his hp
It’s pretty obvious to anyone with a brain.
Wait hold on this is extra funny:
Variss at 80% before the first drain life and the dude isn’t even using moonkin form AT ALL. He’s able to sit there in one spot and spam thrash and that OP leggo. Look what happens to the first set of adds.
The biggest difference is how OP bear was back then, it was the easiest tank by far. Now is more on par with the rest, so it makes sense why it would be a bit harder, but is really not that big of a gap.
One thing to note, is that they were able to use 2 pots back then now we can only use 1, so they had that burst for the first set of adds, beyond the second one he killed them around the same time I did, interrupting the cast and killing them 1 or 2 globals later.
Starting from Krull I killed him like 10-15 seconds later, after I ate the third annihilation, player skill might also be the difference there.
So in this video the bear had a potion running and incarn up… increasing his damage a ton, compared to the current mage tower posted above, where he does not pop major cds.
Great comparison.
hotw pulls can do similar damage. less damage in the first time window. meaning when the first adds spawn, they have less burst, but the window is longer, which makes up for it.
first instance, only 1 ad was alive to cast. this isn’t a big deal.
Second time. looks like to ticks of damage, but he was outranging it because of his movement buffs.
3rd time in p2, instincts was active and he hopped on an orb right after.
4th time. 2 of the adds were dead before the cast, meaning again, not actually a big deal.
5th time. there was no 5th time.
Thats less than half of 10
And potion of prolonged power which proves verse, and incarnation with provides armor.
there are shorter kills with the live version, and the mechagon trinket does 13% damage with one activation.
Seems like the easy mode of now is easier and faster than the ez mode of back then.
I only played pally and warlock during Legion, of which I beat MT on my warlock affliction spec pre-Argus.
I can definitely say that this version of MT is much much harder to complete. Sure there are some hotfixes from Blizzard, but it never managed to scale down to the difficulty that I was familiar with during that time.
There is a video on youtube of a guy doing the frost mage challenge on a level 50 trial character.
Gear helps of course, but the fight is much more about mechanics than anything else. In fairness, frost mages are going to have an easy time in their challenge given how much they slow…but still… there is a lot of overemphasis on being “geared”.
