Mag’har Orc Warlocks

Lore Story Forum
41

Projecting the past into the future is not an argument, just because something was like that doesn’t mean it will always be like that. The current concept of masculinity has little to do with the 18th century concept of masculinity, that’s because cultures change. And being a mag’har today may be less radical than being a mag’har 35 years ago.

If the factions’ ideologies are immutable monoliths then it wouldn’t even make sense to talk about peace in this game, since the initial idea was a war motivated mainly by ideological issues.

Stop putting yourself in the position that you’re some lore herald, you’re not. The decisions can perfectly fit into the lore, a simple dialogue involving Geya’rah when you create your mag’har warlock can simply end your argument.

All she has to say is that you dishonor what it is to be a mag’har and that you are an outcast to the true mag’har orcs. Something like that would be easily introduced into the game and would add more flavor to the decision to be a selfish individual who pursues his own desires for power.

One line of dialogue is what it would take to end all your arguments. Or she may simply treat you as an individual belonging to the mag’har which would mean that the mag’har no longer treat fel magic with animosity.

I was the first to say that being mag’har is first and foremost an ideological concept. I know very well what they are. Just see my post in another thread addressing lightforged draenei warlocks and mag’har warlocks.

And as for just being an orc, every mag’har is just an orc. He just comes from a different timeline, and didn’t drink Mannoroth’s blood. Your conception of mag’hars borders on supremacist. Why would orcs accept a race that thinks it’s better than orcs? Being that the orcs are the most important and founding race of the Horde??

There is no evidence whatsoever that the mag’har are radical as you claim, this is mere headcanon on your part contradicted throughout the lore. Why would the mag’har ally themselves with a race that drank the blood of Mannoroth? Why would they be allies, with blood elves, shal’dorei and forsakens?

42

What exactly the reason for Human Warlocks to exist? They were never in contact with fel or demons, they fought demons a lot. Humans should not be warlocks.

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43

Humans have been practicing warlock magic since Dalaran was founded as an independent mage city.

Granted it was outlawed after demons caused a massacre within the city, but that didn’t stop mages from practicing in secret.

44

Nothing stops maghar from doing the same. Especially with warlock orcs in orgrimmar where they live now

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45

It’s just that these purites are simply ignorant of the concept of free will. God forbid there are mag’har orcs who are simply selfish and desire power above all else.

This has never happened in Warcraft lore. And they would just be mere “orcs”. I find this concept of being mere ‘orcs’ amusing since the last time I checked the mag’har live in the house of mere ‘orcs’.

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46

I’m not “projecting the past into the future”.

I’m just explaining the fact that the race, as it currently is shown in the setting, follows a series of themes and has a series of characteristics.

Could writers change it in the future? Sure.
They could randomly make Orcs purple if they wanted.

But yes, it’s relevant to note how the playable faction is presented NOW, and how it was presented in the PAST, in order to argue how any upcoming change is coherent or not.

You are, again, confusing race with faction.

Races can have several iterations over the same ideology. Or have different ideologies cohabiting: Night elf druids and priests, human warlocks and mages, Tauren shaman and paladins,…

But people that join factions that were created through a shared ideology are restricted to said ideology if they want to belong to said faction.

You glossed over a lot of examples i mentioned earlier, so I’ll ask you to answer a simple question here:

If a Lightforged Draenei, refused to go through the Lightforging process because he believes otherwise, is said Draenei still part of the Lightforged faction?

Sorry, but i don’t need to be the lore herald of anything while pointing at the absurdity of:

“We created a faction of Orcs defined by the fact that they ONLY eat vegetables…but now they also have Steve. Steve eats meat like the rest of Orcs.”

Dude, if you want to include his character so bad, then maybe Steve shouldn’t be considered as part of the Vegetarian Clan…
Maybe he belongs with the other majority of orcs that also eat meat.

I’m not saying they are radical.
I’m saying that they are defined by the fact that they are a group of Orcs reject Warlock practices. That’s it.

Said mindset defines their group. And anyone that does not have said mindset, is not part of said group.
Not because they outright reject said person (although they might), but because its a frigging oxymoron.

Again, you can’t be considered a part of the Vegan Association if you eat meat.

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47

The Mag’har name, and faction, is based around one simple premise: We are not corrupted, and we do not want to be corrupted.(*)

Any Mag’har Orc that decides to be corrupted by being a Warlock…is no longer a Mag’har.

Of course he’d still be an Orc, but if the premise for the faction is to agglutinate “Those orcs that reject Warlock corruption”, once he discards said principle he obviously is no longer part of said faction.

If humans create a faction called “Anti-Warlock Guild”, with a banner that proclaims “No Warlocks allowed”, can one of them decide to be a Warlock and remain part of said group? Of course not.

(*) I’ll have to clarify with this edit that by “corrupted”, the Mag’har refer to the sort of corruption derived from the Warlock practices. The side effects of other forms of power such as the Void or Necromancy, aren’t things they perceive as corruption.

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48

Except that as already stated Mag’har Orc means ‘Uncorrupted Orc’ and, as multiple people have stated to those of you still unable to process it, warlock magic when used, corrupts orcs and turns their skin green.

The moment they start using that magic they are no longer an ‘uncorrupted orc’ they are just an orc.

And we already have playable orc warlocks. They’ve existed since vanilla.

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49

If you were uncorrupted - you still can get corrupted later.

50

If that happens, you are then no longer part of the Mag’har.

And if that’s the goal, why create the class for them to begin with? You already have regular Orc Warlocks available.

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51

That one eyed Mag’har void priest from the Orc heritage should die. I don’t care if it breaks the lore just bring Ner’zhul back from the shadowlands.

52

Doesn’t change the fact that you still wouldn’t be a Mag’har Orc if you used warlock magic and corrupted yourself.

Gerwin used a perfect analogy earlier.

If I form a group of people who pride themselves on being vegan, who have a strict ‘no consumption of anything animal’ policy and then one of those members decides to go and eat meat, dairy or anything made from an animal, then they are no longer vegan, they can no longer call themselves a member of the group.

The moment an Orc starts using warlock magic, they become corrupted, therefor, they are not ‘uncorrupted orcs’ aka, they are not Mag’har.

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53

regular orcs are green.

54

And as we literally have stated. When Mag’har Orcs use warlock magic, they turn green.

What part of that wasn’t able to be understood?

I apologize if that comes off as snarky, but at this point I am tired. I am tired of dealing with people who either don’t know the lore, or fence sit and only care about the lore when it inconveniences them, and I am especially tired of dealing with people slagging me off for not liking the fact that I don’t want warlocks available to the four races that hate warlocks and the fel.

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55

Then explain the mag’har orcs that we see on AU draenor, who are wielding warlock magics but still have brown skin

And there are quite a number of them that we fight

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56

There aren’t any.

Shadow magic is not warlock magic. There are no members of the Iron Horde that we fight that use warlock magic until after Gul’dan takes over the Iron Horde and turns them into the Fel Horde.

57

You are. And you’re making assumptions about the lore that only exist in your head. No one knows how this insertion of warlocks into the mag’har faction will take place. And you’re making countless assumptions without knowing how it’s going to happen.

I didn’t confuse anything. You just want to apply your logic to what serves your argument. Ideological conceptions throughout the game have changed for countless races, factions, cultures and even our enemies. Why are the mag’hars a special case?

I didn’t understand your logic. Are you comparing a ritual that permanently changes someone’s body to a political faction?

But in the case of a lightforged draenei the lore is self-evident, he performed the ritual of being lightforged and subsequently became a warlock.

No one is born a warlock in Warcraft. Every warlock was merely a member of some faction that practiced some kind of magic and was ensnared in a path of insatiable pursuit of power without great moral considerations.

All warlocks are described like this. Therefore, someone being lightforged or mag’har and later becoming a warlock does not contradict the lore in the slightest.

You are not being a herald of anything because one thing does not nullify the other. The very definition of warlock has to do with the fact that they are people with no attachment to social norms.

They are and always have been those who secretly practice forbidden magic, which is frowned upon by society as a whole. The fact that some individuals chose to follow this path does not nullify mag’har lore, it is mere headcanon of yours. And furthermore, this could easily be explained by a later Mag’har split with this individual.

Again, it would only take one line of dialogue from Geyah’rah and you will have no arguments.

And stop using your stupid vegan analogy. Being a mag’har is in this case a mere gameplay option. He would only be an outcast, to the mag’har. But the character’s race would be mag’har in gameplay.

For all intents and purposes he is just another orc, as every mag’har is just another orc. And he could simply be someone who is no longer part of the mag’har faction. What is so difficult for you to understand here?

58

There’s not a single green orc in Tanaan jungle or raid, even though there’s literally lake of green liquid fel.

Orcs are either brown, or if they are fel orcs - just black with some mutation on top.

59

The Mag’har Orcs in the Tanaan Jungle are not using warlock magic. No corruption there.
The Fel Horde are, and they’re corrupted because of it.

As for why the Fel Horde are not green after drinking the Blood of Mannoroth. They are described as ‘Fel Corrupted Orcs’ rather than ‘Fel Orcs’, with the implication being that drinking Mannoroth’s blood after he was dead had a different effect on them than it normally would.

60

Such as?

They are not a special case.
They are just another collective that was made their own faction through common ideology, instead of racial distinction.

This happened because Blizzard wrote about a bunch of Orcs that suffered from a series of circumstances, and developed a particular ideology regarding life, that led them to stand out enough to not belong with the rest of the Orc faction.

And this scenario has been the same one that created:

  • Blood elves.
  • Void elves.
  • Lightforged Draenei.
  • Nightborne

Just to name some examples.

No, I’m explaining the consequences regarding the willingness of an individual to abide or not to the defining ideology of a particular faction.

I’ll ask again:

If a Draenei refuses to go through the Lightforging process, is he still part of the Lightforged faction or not?

The Mag’har aren’t a society.

They are a bunch of Orc clans with a shared mindset regarding specific topics.
And specially, with a shared rejection of Warlock corruption.

Again, that was the whole point of WoD: To showcase a faction of Orcs unified in their rejection of the corruption that affected their MU counterparts.

If you want to rebel against said concept, any individual can of course do so. But that means that he rejects the very concept of the faction he belonged to.
And from a narrative perspective, automatically ceases to be part of said collective.

And to give you an additional clarification of what i mean:
An orc of the Bleeding Hollow that decides to become a Warlock, can still belong to said clan, even if he ceases to be part of the Mag’har.

Have you seen the category of this subforum? Its called Story Forum.

Here, we are supposed to debate Story related issues and events.

So, again, I’ll repeat:
A Mag’har Orc can indeed reject the premise that created the playable faction and be a Warlock (in fact, that story is the one many orcs had throughout the games history).
But that would mean that, from a narrative perspective, he would no longer be a Mag’har.

Also, want to really open the can of worms that represents game-play limitations for the story?

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