OPs thread specifically states to make the rewards cosmetic. To do so would not create the parity you want and I never suggested that there should not be parity between the game modes. So I don’t understand how what you’re saying relates to me. Though I would rather see raid drops increase; as if you have to reduce a game mode in order to incentivize people to do another game mode, that other game mode must not be good.
The guilds getting CE late in the tier don’t have to do M+ either though because of how many times they reclear. If a guild is still in prog at this point in the tier they could’ve gotten ZERO items from m+ and would still be at low-mid 440s which is well over what is required to get CE.
We are on what? Week 10 of the tier? That’s AT LEAST 270 Aspect’s Crests since any remotely competent guild aiming at CE would be 3/9+ week 2. That’s enough to get 441 in any slot you have to rely on heroic for and didn’t loot in mythic.
1 Like
I wonder how many people would raid mythic is they didn’t drop anything but cosmetics/ pets/ mounts. Since it’s not about the gear it’s about the challenge.
OP doesnt know that either since he doesnt raid.
Guilds generally stop reclearing about halfway* through, after Dathea last tier and after Rashok this time.
You don’t really reclear the good stuff, just the trash bosses. And this time, there wasn’t even any point in doing that, since they drop Heroic equivalent thanks to upgrades.
- Halfway through boss count, not chronologically.
Excellent, but the damage was done in 10.0. Glad it is fixed.
The catalyst is a relatively recent development. Prior to that, tier was raid only. Still though, the BiS trinkets, weapons were from raid. The final boss I think is still +3 ilvls on what drops in M+ (at least it was in SL - haven’t kept up as much). Some of the raid items also have unique effects (in DF). Point is you won’t get full BiS from M+ only.
What are you talking about? In the PL world, on average you were getting 2-3 items per raid. Sure, sometimes it wasn’t what you wanted, or already had, but you can also have other players trade items to you. In M+, your vault is just 1 and done, it can still be a dupe or something you don’t want.
Again, we are talking about the ilvl ceiling here. Obviously if you are targeting heroic ilvl, M+ is infinitely farmable, but that isn’t what I’ve been describing/discussing.
The big elephant in the room is crafting. A 16 key giving 12 fragments repeatedly and a mythic boss kill giving 10 meant the only way to get aspect crests for 447 crafts was mythic+.
2 Likes
Yeah, I hear you. Things are different in DF (10.1) and I haven’t kept up as much.
My broader point was that SL focused on raising difficulty and suffered because of it. Early DF doubled down and also suffered.
That was the broader point.
Pretty sure I’m right given how much they have been rolling back on it. Affix rework, high ilvl crafted gear, etc.
I get the whole, “harder content better rewards” mentality. I don’t think that should mean anyone below M+20 or mythic raids get the shaft. We’ve had “free loot” going back as far as VoA (2/4 heroic/max ilvl tier).
If you focus solely on difficulty, you will drive away where the majority of the player base sits (which I can assure you is not 20+ nor mythic raiding).
You guys could be right, in that the “meta” has shifted and is too rewarding at the moment.
I’m not against there being some form of spectrum for ilvl rewards against difficulty that has overlap. I just don’t feel that should be able to encompass an entire set of gear as it does now. Crafted items are max vault ilvl with 50/50 of any two stats you want and the rings come with free sockets you’d otherwise have to rng or use the vault to obtain.
Not to mention the items from raids that are better than m+ / vault / crafted stuff are almost useless to raiders. You kill mythic echo once and anything from mythic sark is by nature irrelevant for progress. You have them for farm but the majority of the use those items get is ironically going to be in mythic+.
Let me put it another way.
I’ve always viewed M+ as a scaling heroic dungeon to get you “ready for raid” (like in the days before M+ existed). So, if you are regularly clearing 15/16 (prior ilvl cap floor) you were “ready for raid: mythic edition”.
Now, should that have been all the way up to mythic raid ilvl? Probably not. Then again, at 1 item per week, even best case you were looking at 16 weeks of perfect rolls to max out a toon via GV only.
So why do I say 15/16 instead of 20? Because if you are ilvl appropriate (i.e. not already at ilvl ceiling) you are already starting to get 1 shot by failed mechanics at the 15-16 range.
Given the scaling nature of M+, there is going to have to be an ilvl cap somewhere no matter what. Anything beyond that point is for leaderboards. My argument was, it was fine at 15/16. Looks like we’ve indirectly gone back to it, given the changes to crafting.
No the vault also now can be upgraded to max ilvl from 16s rewards as well.
M+ is set to offer two different paths to 447 ilvl items at +16 if crafting stays as is.
Yep. Talking about the past and where I think things should lie.
Raid bosses should have been 15 fragments (or drop direct crests) per boss with the last 2 bosses dropping the next level of crests.
Normal Echo/Sark dropping Wyrm
Heroic Echo/Sark dropping Aspect
Also, raid ID lockouts and lack of cross realm hurts and real feasibility of farming the first 3 mythic bosses earlier in the tier for pugs to get aspect crests from the raid.
That’s still nowhere close to comparable given the rate of progression most mythic guilds have and the lack of repeatable sources in raids compared to dungeons. I think crests and crafting just need to be separated and then retuned appropriately.
1 Like
Make it 2 crests per boss even then.
There still needs to be a way to tie the high item level crafted item to actually doing the harder content.
It’s not like you need that many aspect crests at all.