Sire is an unusually difficult end heroic raid boss so I don’t think he should always be the benchmark.
Heroic SLG is MUCH easier than Sire and also drops 220.
Heck, multiple mythic bosses are easier than heroic Sire and drop 226.
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Yeah I wouldn’t be totally against this. Still m+ got nerfed… Doesn’t need more nerfs lol… like gearing through it compared to BFA takes forever. Same with PvP, it’s an insane grind.
Heroic could use a slight buff. Normal and mythic are fine. It’s only one raid mode that’s a little under tuned. A slight bump to chest rewards maybe, a choice every 2 bosses instead of 3, and one roll token a week would be good enough.
Well, the average m+ group never even gets to +15, so there’s that, while heroic raiding is basically a “does everyone show up” kinda thing.
You’re trying to compare apples and oranges here. A heroic raid boss is getting 10-30 people to focus for 3-9 minutes. M+ is getting 5 people to focus for 30-40 minutes. Which one is harder? The one you’ve done less, they’re both PvE, so it’s just practice. That’s all you need.
You’re also comparing m+ 15 today to heroic sire “progression”. Today, almost everyone is 225+, so of course they’re stomping through it. Today, Sire is pugged on the regular and is 1 shot more often than not.
M+ is an infinite scale with smallish steps. You’re doing the same mechanics each time, just a little bit harder. It makes sense that you’d have 10-20 runs under your belt per dungeon before you got there. For raiding; there’s no middle ground. The best gear you can get from heroic raiding is 217.5. Lower levels of the dungeon straight up remove entire integral mechanics of the fights. The lantern on shriekwing, the seekers on altimoor, the miasma on hungering. (Can’t speak to more than that, I’ve only killed the first two in pugs, group fell apart before we got further) every boss in Heroic Nathria has been declawed. But what if it wasn’t? What if there were 15 levels of raid and every level had the same mechanics, just with different numbers? Well, it would probably be a lot easier to progress.
Apples and oranges. Not comparable. But, m+ is a pillar of endgame. I think the loot needs to be looked at. First, I think a busted key shouldn’t award loot. This alone would fix 90% of the caterwauling on the forums. Second, I think the loot scales weird. Drops in m+ are meaningless, so it seems like they could increase the drop rate by a large % to make getting alts to a basic gear level a little easier. I think they should add a “recommended item level” descriptor to keys, just so everyone knows that requiring 220+ for a +10 is ridiculous. And on and on, I made a suggestion post about this recently with more details, but the point is m+ is the most gimped gearing system, and its 100% because heroic raiders want stop m+ players from passing them in power, ignoring their obvious avenue for advancement.
Heroic sire is definitely an interesting one. I can’t really remember a fight that gets arguably more difficult as you gear up. The phasing is a real issue sometimes lol. Of course, the discord always breaks up whenever “hold dps” is uttered.
It doesn’t get harder if players can use their brain for 2 seconds instead of tunneling on their details meter.
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It’s just interesting in how the strat changes. Like you can just double soak everything in phase 1 and push as fast as you can and that works out pretty well.
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and phase 1 is a joke anyway.
More dps only helps for easy 3rd add skips in phase 2 and more dps always helps in phase 3.
Of course, but I think the phasing thing is what makes it harder to pug than other heroic bosses. It probably takes a couple of pulls just to figure out what your phase times are going to look like. It’s been a while since I tried it though lol. Maybe it’s not so bad anymore.
Maybe change the topic to buff pvp / raid / “daily quest based” gearing.
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Eh, in my experience it’s mainly the swirly/massacre fails in p2.
Then in p3 it’s orb position/soak fails and positioning fails for the knock backs.
The only thing dps related that can suck is getting a 3rd set of adds with Sire at like 41%
Yeah that sounds about right. It makes me think of this one guy during prog that just could not avoid that phase 2 stuff. Time after time it got him and he wasn’t a bad player lol. Listening to him on discord was hilarious.
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Odd as it may sound, most of my heroic raid is not actually capable of doing more than a +7 or +8 key, which is about the same as a heroic raid piece at the end of the week.
If you are going beyond that, then yes, the purpose is that you are higher skilled than Heroic raid, and therefore earning gear closer to mythic, up to mythic level, which is about as difficult as the first few bosses in Mythic Raid.
Note, to get 226 gear out of mythic raid, you don’t need to be able to clear it, by definition you can kill 1 boss, though preferably 3 so you can guarantee the 226 out of the chest on top of whatever came out of the raid.
The point being isn’t just “here is a 226”, the difference is the rate at which you get the gear. M+s are only going to provide you a chance at a 226 once per week, that’s it. If you want more than that, you have to Mythic raid or PvP (or AH if you want to spend that much gold on temporary gear).
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Mythic Raiding is the only PvE way to get “max ilvl gear” which is ilvl 233.
So you are saying that downing Mythic SLG and Sire is the “norm”?
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Buffing everything else & leaving M+ the same is equivalent to nerfing M+ & leaving everything else the same. Either way there needs to be some changes. Blizz could increase the ilvl of the items that drop in the Dungeons & then lower the Dungeon Vault rewards or they could just boost the Raid Vault rewards. Either would make things more balanced. The PvP system can stay as it is.
yes, because the only gear is 226+ gear. there is no other gear guys, nope.
So everybody should raid then? and only raiders should get gear? what if… and I’m about to blow your mind here… some people enjoy 5 man content more than raids…
Personally, I have little interest in raiding and little interest in PvP and only like doing dungeons. I still play WoW for Mythic +. I enjoy having a gearing option. Of course people that do (and excell at) all three pillars are going to gear incredibly quickly, and deservedly so. However, don’t punish M+ players because the raiders don’t like that they can gain an advantage.
With the way things are now, all you need to do is run M+ & you will be higher geared than most players who only Raid. In time, players who do nothing but run M+ get to be fully Mythic Raid geared.
As it should be. Also, they get to be fully Mythic + geared, not Mythic Raid geared. Same ilvl, different gear. Anyone who does all of one or the other will still be disadvantaged, though. (correct me if I’m wrong, but) I’m certain there is no class that can get full BiS without stepping into both Raid and M+, if not also PvP.