I am a casual player. I have no issues doing M+ when I find them fun to do. This is the 4th toon I have decided to play this season and the ONLY one I find keys fun to do with. So your argument is null and void from your own perspective. If someone can’t do M+ then that’s a them issue and not a game design flaw. You say make it truly competitive while most can’t get past a +5 so DO TELL how to do what would make it for them to be competitive??
What argument am I making just so I know how to address such an emotional response.
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How much loot did raid drop per boss in mythic before M+? I didn’t play Legion or WoD so I’d be guessing.
M+ is already the main end game PvP pillar.
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In BfA, bosses dropped 5 pieces for 20 people.
Then at the start of Shadowlands they lowered it to 3 drops for 20 people.
Then they “raised” it to 4 drops, where it is now. Lower than in BfA. 
Thanks, helped me find the wowhead article on that.
Even then with the bonus rolls from BFA I feel like an argument for 5 or even 6 drops per boss should be an easy one.
5 would still only be 2 pieces per player in an 8 boss raid.
I want them to completely axe M+ and go back to Challenge mode dungeons. Get rid of all progression from it and make the rewards entirely transmog. Go back to making awesome class sets/weapons. And make raiding the main way to get gear,
That would be impressive, since it’s been a little over 3 months in, and the average M raider is about 637 right now.
It would be a win for players who only care to engage with a single form of content. Whereas it’s a loss for anyone who wants to engage with multiple forms of content as they have just now inherited the same farming requirements you are against for mythic raiders.
And then even for mythic raiders, how do you envision prog would go once you’ve started extending your lockout? Unless you supplement your raid time with another activity to gain power on your character, your character wouldn’t be improving week over week to help you overcome those bosses you are working on.
Yet when M+ players like myself suggest to remove loot lockouts from raids, we’re shot down by players like you. I hate that Blizzard has continually to reduce raid loot; at a minimum it should be dropping the same amount of loot per player as M+ does. And I’d love to see the vault updated to award credit in some way for guilds that are progging bosses. I could not care less about M+ being propped up by people who would rather play other modes; by all means make those other modes fun enough that people don’t come to M+ if they don’t want to.
But it’s disingenuous to complain about the pain and suffering M+ has brought to you if you’re going to summarily reject any solution to improve raid loot that doesn’t result in M+ players having a worse experience. It’s tough to not feel like your actual goal is for raid to be clearly superior to other modes again, not make it so you can enjoy raid as much as players like me enjoy M+.
How is this better for the game, exactly? I genuinely cannot fathom how people can think it’s worse for the game that players can turn any 45 minute chunk of time into real progression for their character, regardless when their designated raid time happens to be. “Raid or die” oftentimes carries a negative connotation for a reason.
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if you can’t reach the first rung of the ladder… take a stepping stool and stick to delves.
The use case that you are not recognizing is players want to progress without being forced into “competitive” play. Why is that an issue for you? People are less sweaty than you but they also pay the same 15 bucks you do. They should have avenues to progress and not be limited by their capabilities. It’s a service. They would still have to put the time in. Just make it suitable for their capacities.
There’s dungeons for that. Normal, Timewalking, and Heroics. M0s for people willing to put in a bit more effort.
no you don’t understand their guild that just barely manages to go 4/8M in a 12-month long final tier requires them to run 300 m+ a week so they can be competitive
Monochromatic hallway
M+ just isn’t fun anymore. Personally I blame the TWW key squish making it harder for lower skilled players to curve which pushes the toxics to toxic.
M+ has always been mildly toxic, but it wasn’t until TWW that it really shot into the spotlight as the main PvP game mode.
I’ve abandoned retail for PoE2.
I prefer mechanically challenging content. Some of these end game PoE2 bosses may kill me 30 times before I get em on my monk, but the learning process and fun of conquest reminds me of early WoW and modern souls like games.
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Lol… “people obviously hate mythic plus because they aren’t any good and won’t put in any effort”.
Or perhaps they simply don’t like the system and how it functions. Always a possibility…
Your misinterpretation of what I said is disingenous at best.
Spoken like someone who doesn’t do the content to comprehend what is currently happening.
You would like m+ then.
Which is weird. Because all of your arguments are based on wanting easier content.
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I wouldn’t compare M+ to PoE2 or Souls games.
Artificial difficulty doesn’t really compare to pure mechanical difficulty.
FFXIV is learning this lesson now.
Define artificial difficulty
Because that feels like a vague blanket term for anything one wants to dismiss.
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