M+ and the "lazy player" argument

Community General Discussion
41

Well,

improving implies that it makes your life better, either financially, or in regards of your body health.

I do not see anything like that by improving a score in a video game. Video games are a hobby with no real benefits but wasting spare time. You know, I used to go to gaming competitions, back in the days when WCG were a thing.

There, you could at least win PC equipment, sponsorships and the like, but there is no such thing in WOW and M+. You will not get a highly paid job by being good in it, your kids won´t receive a scholarship just because you “won” and you also don´t make any money to pay the rent.

So from my point of view, improving has no real value and should not be seen as the ultimate goal there.

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42

The funny thing is… there is a grain of truth to this, though it’s often misconstrued due to a particular bias in the accuser’s mindset.

Yes, players can come across as “lazy” for not wanting to spend the time needed learn how to approach the game in the way needed to clear the content. To learn all the quirks, strategies, and so on. To obtain all the necessary gear and install the necessary add-ons.

But let’s flip the script here. Which side of the argument is being reasonable?

The thing is, the demands and standards that are being set are from the obsessive side. Those who have either put in an absurd amount of time into addressing those quirks and/or are so far ahead of the average player that they fail to realize their requirements are not reasonably obtainable for a relatively new or otherwise not fully engrossed player.

The game is has a history of enabling obsessive levels of behaviour.
So it is lazy to refuse to engage in that degree of absurdity?

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43

I nearly quit the game when I opened a ticket and they basically told me to wowhead it. The kicker was that I had already done that and mentioned it in the original ticket.

44

I don’t disagree, but there’s a disparity here. A +2 can be just as hard as a +3 depending on gear. Just like a +4 can be just as hard as a +6. (And so on). Gear is the limiting factor and unfortunately for us, obsessive or not, gear can cheese challenges.

If Blizz continues letting folks cheese challenges then the brute force, non-obsessive, non-learning individuals will continue doing so because eventually their time vs effort spent will reward them.

As for the argument of new vs experienced. +2/+3 should absolutely be tolerant of new players. Same as +4/+5. That is to say there should be no repercussions for, “I’m new to this affix/dungeon.” Players should be allowed to experiment and improve.

45

M+ is for a certain kind of person, if thats not you… move on.

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46

I don’t think it’s obsessively difficult to click a button on a mob with a three second cast time every ten seconds.

Like, c’mon. Imagine if in Elden Ring, your roll lasted three seconds and the boss swung their big scary attack every ten seconds. The game would be a snorefest. You’re massively overblowing the commitment required to play m+.

It’s like a reasonably adequate expectation to kick mobs. I don’t need pumpers, I don’t need ultrachads.

I just want PUGs that kick or CC mobs. PUGs that take ownership and are actively engaged in the activity that they’re doing instead of spacing out or being on substances and actively making their group worse off.

This is an unspoken rule of the real-life social contract. A pick-up game of football is fine to do drunk or whatever with a bunch of out-of-shape dads because there is no expectation of high-level competency. You won’t be well-liked if you do the same pick-up-game with a bunch of ex-rugby players who visit the gym regularly and genuinely enjoy a close game.

Nobody wants to be held down by someone outside their control.

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47

Is this true? Like are there things we simply cannot see in-game with the standard game UI?

48

yeah lots of people agree with you, that’s why the only people who take golf lessons are people who think they’ll be PGA pros someday

49

I feel the people crying about the people giving feedback on m+ has been extra annoying lately. It’s as if its outlandish that having a large revamp of m+ wouldn’t result in a perfect season and future iterations. I did a necrotic wake 6 on my alt shadowpriest and realized I don’t want to play it anymore because the silence interrupt is actually just trolling my group in terms of its cooldown particularly on amarth as I was helpless to stop anything but one frost bolt volley every other add set, and in general especially with how they did with repeated casts and destroying the utility of stops. I’m not super fond of 15 second deaths+1-minute walks.

Despite that I’ve had a lot of fun this season like I always do, I just have played a ton of keys and there are things blizzard can do that are obvious that would make keys better next season, or even this season if they can manage it.

It is what it is people being hyperbolic all the time is annoying.

50

Then why are you in mythic +?

No. Absolutely not. Same nonsense that Overwatch players in ranked would use when they were caught just straight up throwing…
“I paid for it, so I can play it how I want”…no, incorrect, false.
You sign up for unranked play, you get unranked effort. You play ranked play, you better be in there and give it your all. Why the hell would you sign up for the hardest content and then fall back on some excuse of “its just a game bro”…no, you signed up for a challenge, not a laid back experience.

And if they wanted to play the game any way they wanted, there was literally a mode for that where you could change all the rules. no cooldowns, no gravity, half gravity, double cooldowns, tripple shields…whatever, freeform game mode all the way.
But you know why they don’t use that mode?
they have no friends. Their match would never fill up because they have no friends and everybody else is busy playing unranked, and then ranked…

If you want to doink around, go do heroics. Literally watched a demon hunter pull everything from the start to the first boss and out damaged everybody in the group.

There is a mode for every kind of content.
If you want relaxed, there is premade, guild, world quests, crafting, old world content…what I am saying is that there are dozens if not hundreds of things you could be doing.

But the second you step into our M+ dungeons, you should be 100% on the whole time.
IT is a challenge difficulty for people who want harder content, not easier.

So yes, it is lazy, rude, and disrespectful of everybody around you when you don’t take it serious like they are. Would you show up to work and just stand against the wall and make everybody else do your work for you and then expect to still get paid? No, you wouldn’t. And if you do, bless your heart.

They are taking it serious, and so should you. Go watch a damned 3 minute guide on a dungeon. It’s not hard, in fact you just have to search it and a million videos will come up. Everything from like a two minute explanation, all the way to a full half hour walk through telling you everything about everything.

There are follower dungeons for easy-going people as well. Delves are as chill as you make them to be…

So why join my group only to half-centaur it?

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51

I was watching a critcake stream an there’s so much I miss because I dont use any weak auras or addons. His addons were telling him to jump 3 times, stand in some puddles, let him know when something targetted him with a cast, when he was in range of a frontal, etc. I’d enjoy the game more if there were more visual and sound queues that i’d learn the mechs in the game from actually playing it as opposed to having these addons beep boop me to do things.

52

There are no mythic+ mechanics that can’t be learned through experience in mythic 0s and low keys and reading the dungeon journal.

My guess is some players don’t take an active role in even trying to learn them?

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53

The 15- sec affix is too punishing imo.

54

For every request like this, there’s a player who will be too busy looking at their bars to see it, or plays with sound off, or whatever other excuse.

If you want to get better at the game, do it. The game design is not the issue.

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55

I hear what you are saying but the only form of progression is tied to “ranked” play which is a flaw in a game touting itself as an RPG.

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56

and delves. and world content. and dungeons.
there is a lot of progression. you could even do unranked pvp and have progression there.

don’t use excuses.

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57

There are some things that would be nice baseline. Needing a weekaura to tell you a mob is about to one shot you with a cast is stupid. A lot of the pvp things bleeding into pve like drinks ramping up and diminishing returns on cc make less sense over time as the first one was accompanied with seasonal affixes that were meant to restore mana and the second combos with stops no longer putting casts on cooldown. Death logs could also be a little less arcane since I sort of have to use details to actually see what happened. In fact a built-in damage meter would do wonders for people who think they are doing good, but are in fact in a serious battle with the healer for last place.

58

People play a game to have fun, but not necessarily to relax.

Yes, games can be relaxing if they are playing relaxing content. However, if someone is playing challenging content, they can get pumped up and/or stressed out. Either way, they can still have fun though.

M+ is not intended to be casual relaxing content. It only appeals to the casual masses due to the generous infinite loot. People are supposed to come prepared so they can overcome challenges.

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59

You’ll get to 619, that’s about it

60

As most problems with the game that don’t get enough attention, the issues with M+ come from all sides. Yes, people are just inherently lazy and don’t want to do minimal work to learn how to make themselves a success. That’s the nature of the beast.
On the same token, M+ is designed for nobody in particular, least of all the folks I just mentioned who are the vast majority.

Literally nobody wants 1pack pulls to require 8 interrupts (CoT). Blizz over-designs around an imaginary player because some players trivialize the challenge of content. I don’t understand why that hurts blizzard’s ego so much, but it ends up in them over-designing for literally nobody.
Then on the flipside, as a rdruid main, the resto tree is under-designed, with talents scattered around and barely considered at all… just wild project management spectrum.

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