Love letter to Paladin (Jk I want to complain/propose changes)

Classes Paladin
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I love Paladin.

If you are here, you might not love Paladin, but you at least think about it.

And regardless of anything else, the Tmogs are immaculate

This will be a BIG POST about Paladins as a whole, but focusing on topics I’ve discussed or seen discussed in the last few weeks. Undermined is freshly out, and bugs may or may not be fixed as this post ages.

See Headers for topics that may interest you

Class Identity:

“Class Identity” is a phrase that I enjoy throwing around, but has been defined, re-defined, and ignored so many times that it has lost concrete meaning and become more of an ideal about what a Class would look like if you tried to trace its shadow from its reflection.

AKA, its messy yo.

Most will agree (hopefully ordered least divisive to most controversial) that Paladins should:

  • Wear Plate Armor
  • Have Glowing Gold Aesthetic and Abilities
  • Use “Blessings” to Target and Benefit Allies
  • Have a Telegraphed “Power Up Phase” like Avenging Wrath/Seraphim
  • Have Poor Mobility
  • Have Off-Heal/Hybrid Capabilities
  • Have a combination of Ranged and Melee Abilities

However, these are not dedicated design goals published and supported by Blizz, these are just things that either get reinforced Xpac after Xpac, given-and-taken-away Xpac after Xpac, or jut been there since Class conception and stuck around.

This list is my aggregate opinion, but I genuinely believe that all these are important for Paladin to be “Paladin-y”

PvE vs PvP:

WoW wouldn’t be WoW without the “World” or without the “Warcraft”. PvE and PvP are both important. But also, PvE and PvP are effectively separate games.

Paladin has , on paper, (almost) every tool for every job.

  • Abilities that do damage at close range
  • Abilities that do damage at mid range
  • DoTs
  • Single, big hits
  • Stun
  • AoE Blind
  • Snare/Slow removal
  • Self Heal & Target Heal
  • Defensives (Flat% DR & Thorns in ‘Eye for an Eye’)
  • Externals (BlessSac BoP)
  • Immunes
  • Cleanse
  • Holy has a dispell and Prot can sometimes use BlessSpellwarding in a similar fashion.
  • Move Speed Increase

With a laundry list this long, it may seem like a Paladin will have a tool to react to every situation. I often hear sentiments that “A good Paladin will use all their utility over the course of a fight, a midling Paladin will just zug-zug”

However, with access to all these tools, Paladin can not really claim “mastery” over any one area. Divine Steed will increase your movement speed, but it is not a teleport. Hammer of Justice is a long stun, but it is magic instead of physical, and can be dispelled. BoP and LoH are powerful external tools, but create Forbearance and cannot be stacked easily.

This “jack of all trades master of none” playstyle lends its self to reactive play. See what the situation is and what it’ll likely become, then react accordingly. (Proactive play occurs more when you know you are the strongest at 1 thing, and you make your gameplay around that thing)

Having a reactive playstyle is an interesting design space, but leads to extreme differences between the power level of abilities in PvE vs PvP.

PvE: The boss is going to cast big slow frontal, and you know someone (or yourself) can’t get out of the way - cast a Blessing of Protection and save the target! 5min cd well spent.

PvP: cast BoP on a target:

  • Enemies change damage type to magic
  • Enemies change targets
  • Enemies spell steal the BoP
  • Enemies teleport to another target
  • Enemies use a magic stun/blind/displacement
  • etc.

All these plays are what PvP is about and I am not saying BoP needs to be stronger - I am saying that this ability feels much, much more rewarding in PvE scenarios where unpredictability is less of a factor. (BoP is a 5 min cd, when an enemy player “answers” it, they will not need to use a 5 min cd - Paladin is left feeling a bit disappointed)

Choosing to keep Paladins feeling reactive overall makes the class feel play very differently in PvE vs PvP. Not sure what Blizz wants to do to change this feeling, or if they even consider it an issue.

What is “Retribution”:

I’ve talked much, and actually said little. I’ll keep this one sweet.

What is “Retribution”?

  • Holy is the Healer, they have AoE heals, dispells, etc that Prot and Ret do not
  • Prot is the Tank, they have BIG DEFENSIVES that Ret and Holy do not
  • Ret has - uhh…?Wake of Ashes? maybe carpal tunnel from pushing the same 3 buttons over and over.

This may seem obvious but, most of what makes a Paladin a Paladin is in the left Class tree (duh -its call the Class tree). But what makes Ret special feels more like a lack of the deeper gameplay Holy and Prot get rather than Ret gaining anything for being Ret.

I personally enjoy when Ret has viable reactive Off-Healing {Healing Hands talent, gone too soon ;-;} It gives Ret something to do in the 30s-1min time table rather than just the extra 5 min buttons (BoP, LoH) that all Paladins use. However, Blizz has stepped away from this and made Ret very 1 dimensional even with all the “Paladin” buttons it has.

Forbearance (Aka 4 Bears and Ants) :

Another, hopefully, short one

Forbearance is the “rip-cord” designed to keep abilities that read “Immune” from becoming too powerful. Without 4BearAnts it is hypothetical, if incredibly impractical, to stack a raids-worth of Immunes on one target and funnel externals to make one “immune” tank vs the boss

(I know BoP clears aggro, but its an intro statement to set the tone)

Forbearance is a tuning knob and encourages the Paladin to think about if the immune is truly needed or if it will be more needed in the next 30sec. This is a good way to encourage more thinking/skill expression about the 5 min spell, especially as it will almost never be pushed every 5 minutes.

When Pallies stack, forbearance is grating and allows you to “sabotage” your allies by wasting the very important defensive they were going to rely on. (And/or, just BoP the Tank and wipe the group woopsie :upside_down_face:)

Blizz has changed “sabotage” gameplay in the past where Tier Sets encouraged letting DoTs fall offs, unintuitive gameplay, etc.

That Blizz has not changed Forbearance in ages it means it is here to stay, but I would like Blizz to acknowledge if this “sabotage” gameplay is an exception to their other stated goals.

It is strange that there are not choice nodes that would decrease the power of spells that cause Forbearance but remove Forbearance, so that Pallies can play together in a group without friction.

Forbearance Forbearance Forbearance Forbearance Forbearance Forbearance -Ya ever read a word so much it loses meaning? 4BearAnts is better

Expected, Realistic, and Problematic Playstyles :

“Opinions are fun, you can have as many as you want, and they can all be wrong!”

The following will be opinionated and most likely fail several logical fallacies.

  • Ret has the stigma of being the beginner spec as the rotation is “easy” and the differences in damage between optimizing your rotation and failing your rotation is less than other damage dealers.

This playstyle is “Problematic” to some and “I don’t really see an issue with it” to others. I would personally keep Rets rotation as is, and step on the toes of the Healer role /Augvoker role and give Ret more skill expression in the 30sec-1min timescale.

–

  • Blessing of Protection and Blessing of Spellwarding (BoP & BoS) are best used for “cheese” and too much cheese makes a dungeon rotation a slog. But other use cases are somehow worse

BoP will either skip something that is supposed hurt/kill you
OR
BoP gets put on that dang dps that runs ahead or rips aggro because they are failing “Intro to WoW” level game understanding.

Its use can be both “Problematic” when use is optimized but in a more “Realistic” scenario, its a 5 min button that is used because a “noob” is doing a “noob” thing. (No implied negativity towards someone not playing “correctly” - everyone is on their own gameplay skill journey)

Bonus thought: "BoP" can save someone standing in a frontal or dash, the "WASD keys" can also do this -for no mana -with no CD -with no Forbearance -with no GCD -with no Aggro switch

–

  • Off-Healing/ Hybrids in general. Blizz turn out your pockets, cmon man. I know you have an opinion somewhere, I just want to know what it is.

If Ret or Prot is ever “Off-Healy” enough where a “Healerless” key is viable for low to mid skill level groups, a !Problem! is happening.

I will also argue, if the most skilled players in the world are not running any Healerless keys in a season that is still a problem. I have spoken elsewhere that I am not a fan of the changes to Rets Healing Hands talent no longer allowing use on allies -and I won’t rehash it here.

I am, however, still going to try using Prot with Seal of Charity and Hand of the Protector and mana pots to try and run a Healerless run.

If “Off-Healing” is the class fantasy and must remain the class fantasy for Ret and Prot, there should be some level of wiggle room. (Or Ret especially should get a different focus of the Class Fantasy)

Bonus stray thought: Holy should get some "Off-Tank" functionality if they are going to be expected to keep Shield of the Righteous. Blizz should either go full crazy and give Holy a bonus on taunt so they can man up and take a hit for someone, or give Shield of the Righteous some damage splitting functionality like Blessing of Sacrifice (just much less strong, of course)

Closing Thoughts :

Thanks for reading, or more likely, skipping around trying to see if I wrote anything worthwhile - or, at least, something so wrong you can flame me for it.

I enjoy playing Paladin and its a very popular community / class, I enjoy interacting with Paladins on the forums, but I wish there was more perceived guidance and statements from Blizz about how they want things to be, rather than how they are.

Please talk to me about anything Paladin wise while we all wait for the bugs in this latest patch to get fixed :pray:

Yknow, like:

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I think the reason there isn’t one, is because Blizzard themself don’t know. The dev team is in constant flux, class designer get swapped out all the time and this naturally leads to fluctuating class design. There is no “vision” for every class/spec. Because one persons vision gets tossed out when they leave the class team for whatever the new guy wants.

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we should go back to being a super bursty spec, it makes ret feel like ret when you line up one or two one minutes or 2min cds and dumpster every spec

as for offhealing, i wont miss this niche version of offhealing after experiencing so many better versions of it in the past. like bfa aoe wog, that being on a static cd but doing a large amount of aoe healing actually helps it feel impactful at a low op cost instead of spamming wogs if your healer isnt up to snuff.

another solid addition would be a refocus on SOV, i like it as a damage button especially as one of the strongest damage per cd button in the game and frankly it screams retribution. a return of ageisjamur lego from legion for a cheat death or a super SOV to encourage players to take risks to do giga damage for the flavor of ret would be nice

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The stigmation was created by blizz themselves stating this is the goal for rets…

This isn’t a paladin theme. That is a death knight theme…

And they are more mobile then us!

We are the retribution of paladins, we bring RETRIBUTION to our enemies, not be far in the distance throwing hammers and blades from the earth. I personally think needs alittle more in your face shoving retribution in your throat feel. As for the other aspects…

I would like to see us have more group minor skills, group heals on a CD like WoG used to be or things like movement speed buffs to help our allies get out of bad faster for a few seconds comes into mind.

I am starting to think an ability that has both a dg/priest ally move skill would suit paladins also, which would suit us since we always had an option to either be offensive or defensive use of our skills.

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Blizzard did this in df and went overboard in tww and the many “ret mains” just ate it up. In the end very few left playing ret care fir skill expressiin, mastery, experience or anything that rewards actual thought. They just want a spec they can play while blindfolded on a ps pad and be top damage. Its pretty much over

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You can do this already with most specs in game with the introduction of soft targeting.

The only role that has a hard time doing that still is healers.

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I think this is such an interesting topic that I wish got discussed more when it came to Class Design in these major patches. :slight_smile:

Obviously I talked briefly about this in the 11.1 PTR Forums, and I might do something for the Fall of Midnight, depending on how bored I get, lol.

But the Class Identity/Fantasy too me is really interesting because we’re reaching this pivotal point of 10 years since WoW: Legion.

Legion removed a lot of fantasy from the game, including Auras, Seals, and even Hammer of Wrath, and it really feels like Paladins have struggled to find an identity that flows since then.

This is about the time Games stopped being about having fun, and just became things to consume.

For example:

  • We’re reaching a point where Seals have been out of the game longer than they’ve been in, or things like Divine Steed existing longer than it hasn’t, etc…

Not to say I’m begging for Seals to return, it’s just interesting that it’s been 10 years with Seals, and now 11 years without… time flies :sweat_smile:

On the topic of Class Fantasy, interesting enough for Paladins, is that there are all these avenues that could exist, but nothing really feels like it connects.

Auradin Example

  • Crusader Aura
  • Devo Aura
  • Concentration Aura
  • Merciful Aura (Holy)
  • Aura Mastery(Holy)

This feels bad because:

  1. Our Choices of Auras don’t feel competitive or meaningful, in comparison to Druid Forms
  2. Prot and Ret don’t have their own version of Aura Mastery - This is not a fantasy that’s been doubled down on
  3. As Holy – Crusader and Concentration feel never used during Aura Mastery due to the benefits of that damage reduction, an overburden spell
  4. Auras and Aura Mastery have no Animation/VFX

There’s really no connection to Auras across the Paladin Class. They could be deleted tomorrow and hardly be noticed.

Divine Steed Example

Love or hate the spell, or don’t particular care one way or the other – that doesn’t really matter. :wink:

What matters is that there is really nothing else in the Paladin Toolkit that emphasizes Divine Steed in anyway.

If you look at Enhancement Shamans, they have;

  • Ghost Wolf
  • Feral Lunge
  • Summon Feral Spirits

Shaman have a bit of a consistent theme with Ghost Wolves.
Rider of the Apocalypse Death Knight even summon in their Fourhorse Persons.

It’s not to say Paladins need it, but just as a Design Exercise;

  • How do you incorporate Divine Steed into more of the Class?
  • What cooldowns could be designed with Divine Steed in mind?
  • PvP Talents?

Cooldown Example

You’re just going through the emotions of pressing buttons

If you look at Unholy Deathknights, they have;

  • Raise Ghoul
  • All will Serve (Archer Undead Minion)
  • Army of Dead
  • Summon Abom
  • Summon Gargoyle
  • Unholy Assault
  • Apocalypse
  • Summon Magus

Their cooldowns feel very themed and synergetic. You summon Undead, your cooldowns summon more Undead, and Unholy Assault → Apocalypse, feel like good synergetic abilities.

If you look at Ret Paladins. they have:

  • Avenging Wrath/Crusade
  • Wake of Ashes
  • Divine Toll
  • Final Reckoning/Execution Sentence
  • Divine Hammers
  1. What feels “Angelic” like Avenging Wrath? What’s another ability that gives you wings and lets you kindof float around the map? :wink:
  2. What feels “Fire/Radiant” like Wake of Ashes? Does FR feel more Holy based or Fire?
  3. etc…

Do you feel like there are synergies between these abilities or are you just going through the emotions of hitting Cooldown #1 → Cooldown #2 → Cooldown #3 → Cooldown #4??

If you look at Holy Paladins, they have:

  • Avenging Wrath/Avenging Crusader
  • Tyr’s Deliverance
  • Divine Toll
  • Blessing of Seasons :roll_eyes:
  • Arua Mastery
  1. What other abilities feel “Angelic?”
  2. What fantasy is Tyr’s Deliverance double downing on?
  3. How could Blessing of Seasons and Aura Mastery feel better to press?

From a Min/Max PoV you pressed the button and it does it’s job – cool… but from a Fantasy Video Game perspective - What’s the game play that being made here?

Melee vs Caster Example

These are just some interesting topics I’ll go into later if I do a PTR post again, but just things I find interesting.

Ret:

  • If you play Retribution and you spec into Crusading Strikes – Did you know you don’t have a single active melee range button on your bars?
  • Outside of Rebuke, there’s nothing to actively press inside melee range that tells you; “You should be in melee to do 100% damage.”
    • As far as a video game goes, you lose that sense of important information

Holy:

  • Holy has one of the most stark transitions from Caster to Melee and it’s going from PvE to PvP – most notably with the addition of Denounce.
  • Something so interesting on Holy Paladins is how you play in Mythic+, attempting to be in Melee range to hit SotR, etc… to being almost completely ranged in PvP.
    • Holy feels almost so squishy vs melee that you often find yourself running from them when they engage you, instead of standing as a melee healer and fighting
  • Denounce kindof doubles down on this range fantasy, when you sit 40 yards away next to a pillar and shoot ranged Holy Bolts when you can. (not to say Denounce is Meta-- it’s just the playstyle of when you do use it.)

Obviously the melee healers are hated in PvP, but the difference in this PvE Melee Healer, to this PvP Caster Healer is just super interesting in how it plays out from a Class Fantasy perspective.

Like I said, maybe I’ll do a longer post in a future patch because the frankenstein’s monster that is Paladins just seems so interesting. I wish Blizzard would do a 3 hour video on how things came to be with this monstrosity. :sweat_smile:

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