[You have chosen to help rescue Baine]
Sylvanas will remember that.
2 Likes
Baine is someone who is not a warmongering idiot. He recognized where there is little reason to keep fighting after the raid, the only response being “no weakness!” because Sylvanas has her backstabbing plan. He risks himself to stop something evil. Maybe Lor’themar is too unwilling to risk his people, but that does not mean he can’t strongly admire adhering to certain principles above Warchief loyalty.
1 Like
Again, I agree with everything you have just said. Your post is a series of true statements.
But those true statements do not demonstrate that Lor’themar, who shares radically different values to Baine in key respects, would call Baine ‘All that is best in the Horde’. That is a statement not of agreement, empathy, or even common cause, but a declaration of ideological alignment.
Not only is Lor’themar not ideologically aligned with Baine in such a way that these words make sense (But he is, keep in mind, aligned in many key respects), but that being the case would also indicate a character shift that isn’t demonstrated in later appearances by his character - so this bit of dialogue is out of place.
I understand everything about why Lor’themar is there and why he likes Baine. But these words do not make sense, even when that is understood. I can come up with comparable examples all day; It would be like Tirion Fordring calling Darion Mograine ‘A true paragon of the light’ just because they both fought the scourge to defeat the Lich King. It doesn’t matter even if Tirion thought that Darion was serving the light’s will incidentally, or that he was saying it to express that he was glad to have Darion as an ally - Tirion declaring Darion a paragon of the light would not make any sense.
14 Likes
Are their approaches to politics so different? Lor’themar’s go-to political move when dealing with any subject that he finds difficult to govern is to exile them. Wasn’t that Baine’s go-to move as well?
The idea that the only people Lor’themar cares about saving are blood elves is fundamentally incorrect. He is Horde. He’s been Horde since MoP. He stuck out his own neck at Lordaeron to help the Horde.
Does he want the blood elves to be safe? Absolutely. Does he care about the Horde, too? Undeniably.
2 Likes
So much so that he was entertaining the thought of leaving it when Garrosh was warchief.
1 Like
True. But to say he’d consider Baine the examplar of what is ‘All that is best’ within the Horde is not fundamentally the same as saying that. It also doesn’t preclude that he considers the Blood Elves his primary responsibility, which is absolutely compatible with caring for the rest of the Horde.
2 Likes
I think it’s fair for him to think that baine’s a good dude who was correct about killing the traitor forsaken and freeing the enslaved derek proudmoore. baine isn’t all that’s best, though. that’s blizzard trying to give us an alliance character as warchief.
No, it isn’t.
Southern Baptist Christ, do people on these forums love black and white fallacies.
3 Likes
Is that seriously his altered dialog? The old version was so much drastically better it’s unbelievable. How do you go from Lor’themar ruminating on the past of the Horde, their allegiances, how he used to know Sylvanas, to him just saying “BAINE GOOD, SAVE NOW”?
Like, I literally don’t think him and Baine have ever shared more than two words with each other, and that was always at meetings of Horde leaders.
It needs to be changed back. Who would you even contact about that? Some dev on Twitter? Because it’s obvious they don’t read this forum.
15 Likes
Did they really change the dialogue from the OP? I liked the OP’s version because it establishes that the Belfs are loyal instead of fair weather friends.
If their new dialogue is how Baine loves the Alliance and how Lor’themar admires him for it then smh. Blizzard needs to fix their games.
16 Likes
Yeah, I care about my countrymen but i’m going to pick my family over them when it comes time to order my priorities. You can have a primary responsibility among many others.
Unless you misread that as ‘incompatible’, which I did not say, because otherwise I don’t see how you could read my words as a black and white fallacy.
1 Like
I did, my mistake.
Indeed we need people telling them to change the dialogue back on twitter, cause this new version is absolutely disgusti g and reeks of Golden trying to force us to like her disgusting Horde narrative tool.
It is incoherent AF and basically OOC for Lor’themar to say this bunch of BS.
I pass on trying to contact the devs… I wouldn’t be civil to tell them and unfortunately for us they just hear people that kiss their behinds.
10 Likes
People used to tell me that Golden doesn’t hold that much power inside the writer team but this new dialogue has her fingerprints all over it. So, as long as I pay for this product I get to criticize her job as much as I want.
I feel like both versions are focusing on the wrong things. If they want Lor’themar to organically side against Sylvanas - the right choice - I’d tie it back to his past experiences with tyrants and the time he first saw something sinister in Sylvanas. Perhaps something like…
"As Sylvanas once reminded me, it was by her hand that we sin’dorei found our place in the Horde.
"I knew her better than most, once upon a time. As once I did Kael’thas Sunstrider. Both made many sacrifices for the good of my people. Death and worse was to be their reward.
"Our fallen prince made many mistakes, but he knew well the importance of allies. He knew that Quel’Thalas would need bonds of friendship if it were to survive the darkness that had split our land in twine.
"It took more than one tragedy to carve that lesson into our hearts. My people have found strength in the Horde. However dark her intentions were, I owe Sylvanas for making that possible for us.
"But no matter the man he used to be, I could not follow Kael’thas on his road to oblivion, nor Garrosh on his own. A noble name cannot be allowed to excuse the deeds of a tyrant. An honoured past must not consign us to destruction.
"There is no choice here. Not for me. To blindly follow Sylvanas into the abyss that claimed Kael’thas, and Arthas before them both, would be a betrayal I could not live with.
“With every bond Sylvanas cuts, the Horde grows weaker, loses more of itself. I say we have lost enough. Go to Baine. By the grace of the Sunwell, if his life can be saved, I will take my place beside Saurfang and Thrall, and we will save this Horde together.”
11 Likes
Remove Arthas, a blood elf like Lor’themar should only feel contempt for him, not pity (I mean the only thing they know lorewise is that he went cuckoo and massacred his own lordaeronian subjects + the elves in Quel’thalas for the lols).
Rest I like a lot…
1 Like
I’d also ditch “However dark her intentions were.” The idea that Sylvanas only protected Quel’thalas in the first place as part of a 10-year scheme to eventually do something evil is unnecessarily conspiratorial. Lor’Themar should at least have faith that her initial intentions were good.
5 Likes
Just wait for the retcon.
6 Likes
Remember when you found my locket and I filled the halls of the Undercity with a mournful melody lamenting the tragedy of my people? I WAS JUST LULLING YOU INTO A FALSE SENSE OF SECURITY!
13 Likes
I agree, I wasn’t really trying to have him empathise with Arthas, only acknowledge that she’s walking the same road he did. Blizzard didn’t bother to actually give him an opinion on the Scourge invasion of Teldrassil and him arbitrarily denouncing it two patches later would be tacky IMO, but there it is.
That was more a nod to their big argument in In the Shadow of the Sun, where she threatened to throw Quel’Thalas to the wolves if Lor’themar didn’t follow her orders. Regardless of whether he’s correct or not, I think Lor’themar would seriously believe at this point that Banshee-Sylvanas never cared at all about protecting her homeland and only came to its aid to garner more pawns and manpower (more “arrows in the quiver”).