Lore Q&A and Character Help 4

Lore World's End Tavern: Role-play and Fan Fiction
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I'm back again on the topic of the Light.

I've been planning on making a blood elf paladin, so I've been looking up some of the related lore pages on Wowpedia. It's given me a few questions.

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First things first, I apologize for bringing this up a third time, but the history of the Blood Knights brings me back to the topic of paladins and believing their cause is good.

So, they stole their power from a captive naaru. According to what's written on the Wowpedia page, this allowed the Blood Knights to invoke the powers of the Light without requiring a moral code. The source listed for this info is the novella, Blood of the Highborne. I don't own the book myself to read over, but I assume what's written is correct.

My initial thought was that perhaps this meant pre-Sunwell Plateau blood elf paladins weren't technically paladins. They're almost exclusively referred to as Blood Knights, so this might hold true. However, I did find a few instances where they are referred to as paladins.

The "Burning Crusade Townhall", talking about the upcoming Burning Crusade expansion and the addition of blood elf paladins and draenei shaman, refers to the Blood Knights as 'renegade paladins'. Renegade or not, it's still calling them paladins.
From: https://wow.gamepedia.com/The_Burning_Crusade_Townhall/Shamans_and_Paladins

Then, there's a few quests I found that directly refer to Blood Knights as paladins, whether it's talking about the player or just in general. All of them from the BC era.
Sources:
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Paladin_Training_(Horde)
https://wow.gamepedia.com/When_I_Grow_Up...
https://wow.gamepedia.com/A_Study_in_Power

Given this information, would it be fair to say that the tidbit from the paladin Wowpedia page only applies to paladins that draw power from their faith?
The part in question: "Paladins don't always have to work within good or neutral organizations, as seen by the Scarlet Crusade and others — however, they do have to believe they are working for good organizations or have faith that their cause is good and just."

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Second question, relating to the Sunwell. Are you aware of any instances of a blood elf being severed from their connection to it, aside from when it was destroyed?

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Third and final question, relating to the paladin order. Is there any possibility there existed blood elf paladins before the Blood Knight order? Going back to that "Burning Crusade Townhall" I linked earlier, it mentions many of the Royal Guard becoming members of the Blood Knights. It kind of sounds like they might have been some sort of pseudo-paladins beforehand, but that might just be me reading too much into it. Next to nothing is mentioned about them, aside from them feeling like the Light failed them so they decided to become Blood Knights.

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Thanks again for what you do here. I'd search some of this stuff more myself, but Wowpedia is apparently practicing for a magic show; it made the search bar disappear.

Edit: I feel like I should put this here, but the mention that the Blood Knights were unique for calling upon the Light without a moral code serves to me as the proof I was looking for that utilizing the Light does require a belief that your cause is just. Thus, I no longer question that aspect of the paladin page, except as to whether or not this belief bestows upon the user the title of paladin.
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11/01/2018 01:31 PMPosted by Vozul
What's the traditions around orcish mating? I know they take life-mates, and I know the orcs go on a "hunting trip" (ahem) as a culmination of their bond. Zug zug. But how does an orc select his/her mate? Are they arranged by the clan shaman, does the male offer a gift and the female either accepts or denies? Do men fight each other for the woman's attention? (Do the women fight?)
All we know is the courting hunt, and unfortunately we have very little other information on the mating rituals. We can guess from Thrall and Aggra though (at least, from Aggra's side, as she's much more a traditional orc than Thrall is) that a regular wedding is, at the least, appropriate and acceptable by orcish standards.

11/01/2018 01:31 PMPosted by Vozul
This kinda ties in with my first question. One of the female troll /flirts references a heat they go into, and that presents some fascinating cultural ramifications for a sentient race to have a mating season, considering we, as humans, lack that context. Are there any other playable/sentient races with canonical seasons such as that?
I'd take the vocal emotes with a grain of salt, as even Wowpedia doesn't consider them canon due to their outright references (sometimes by literal name) to real-world subjects.

That being said, there is a suggestion from a goblin in Shadowmoon that draenei shed their horns seasonally, and female draenei in particular are very subconscious about it. I believe that's the closest in lore we've got.

11/01/2018 03:58 PMPosted by Sunpai
Given this information, would it be fair to say that the tidbit from the paladin Wowpedia page only applies to paladins that draw power from their faith?
The part in question: "Paladins don't always have to work within good or neutral organizations, as seen by the Scarlet Crusade and others — however, they do have to believe they are working for good organizations or have faith that their cause is good and just."
I would say so, yes.

11/01/2018 03:58 PMPosted by Sunpai
Second question, relating to the Sunwell. Are you aware of any instances of a blood elf being severed from their connection to it, aside from when it was destroyed?
On an individual level, I don't believe so, but something in the back of my mind makes me think I'm forgetting an example.

That being said, the Sunwell's boundaries are limitless; once an elf is bound to it, they're bound to it, no matter how far from the Sunwell they get. It even extends into alternate dimensions, as we saw with the Sunsworn on Draenor.

11/01/2018 03:58 PMPosted by Sunpai
Third and final question, relating to the paladin order. Is there any possibility there existed blood elf paladins before the Blood Knight order?
I'm of the mind that a priest who trains in physical combat, wears plate and uses a hammer, is a paladin. I think the difference between paladins and priests is roughly the same as battle-mages and mages. Same magic, same source, similar abilities, just different armor and weapons. From this, I would say it's almost certain that a blood elf paladin existed long before the Blood Knights.

The lore disagrees with this, however, as humans are given the clear credit of having the first paladins on Azeroth, first appearing after the First War not 30 years ago. That being said, I find it incredibly hard to believe that the Zandalari worshipped Rezan for thousands of years and never thought once to draw his powers while wearing plate, or the high elves had access to the Light but never once thought to use a hammer at the same time. It just seems absurdly unlikely, but that's what we've got.

So, to be clear, the lore says no paladins on Azeroth existed before the Knights of the Silver Hand. I just personally think that's beyond illogical.

11/01/2018 03:58 PMPosted by Sunpai
Thanks again for what you do here. I'd search some of this stuff more myself, but Wowpedia is apparently practicing for a magic show; it made the search bar disappear.
Happy to help. :)

PCJ, the head admin, has been doing some coding work on the backend today so things might've be a little buggy, but they should be alright now.
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Are drakes the dragon equivalent of a teen? And if they are, do they have similar mindsets to that of a younger person, or are they still as wise and mysterious as their elders?
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11/01/2018 01:31 PMPosted by Vozul
Two questions have just popped up for me! I love posting here.

  • What's the traditions around orcish mating? I know they take life-mates, and I know the orcs go on a "hunting trip" (ahem) as a culmination of their bond. Zug zug. But how does an orc select his/her mate? Are they arranged by the clan shaman, does the male offer a gift and the female either accepts or denies? Do men fight each other for the woman's attention? (Do the women fight?)
  • This kinda ties in with my first question. One of the female troll /flirts references a heat they go into, and that presents some fascinating cultural ramifications for a sentient race to have a mating season, considering we, as humans, lack that context. Are there any other playable/sentient races with canonical seasons such as that?


    • It seems to me that Blizzard modeled orcs after TNG Klingons, so any Klingon enthuisast should be able to give you something in excessive detail for you to work with, as you're in the situation that since Blizzard doesn't give any answers in this area, make up your own.

    As to trolls, my spouse had an infamous Female Troll Mage whose rp handle was "you see her gnawing on a bone from her fifth husband." A would be troll suitor was cautioned about this from his fellow clanmates but his response was . "Yah mon, but whatta way to go."
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    11/02/2018 03:46 PMPosted by Pottaz
    Are drakes the dragon equivalent of a teen? And if they are, do they have similar mindsets to that of a younger person, or are they still as wise and mysterious as their elders?


    Dragon aging is a strange and weird blizzard mistress of grey ambiguity. So we have instances of whelps being derpy whelps, but then we have Wrathion. Wrathion is a black dragon whelp. He’s only… what? 4 years old or so. Yet he takes the form of a young adult human. He has vision, and knowledge of an average adult, but I wouldn’t say he is wise. One can have intelligence, but the experience only ever can be learned with time. I believe Blizzard has stated they are born with the functioning knowledge of an adult.

    Then it is hard to say what is actually classified as a whelp, drake, and dragon. There are no great, established, consistent norms for when one “evolves” into their next stage of life. I have found that ambiguity is best. A whelp is a child, a drake a teen, a dragon an adult. My own headcanon is whelp to 20s, drake from 20s to 100s, dragon from 100+. Or more. Kind of similar to the night elves society.

    Is a drake going to be “Whatever. Gawd you don’t get me. Oh em gee.”? Eh, various character to character. Kersia was a bit rebellious to her elder sister when she was in that drake stage of life. And that is what segwayed into her adult development.
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    11/02/2018 11:22 PMPosted by Kersia
    So we have instances of whelps being derpy whelps, but then we have Wrathion.
    There's actually an answer for this from an interview with Dave Kosak, copied down on Wowpedia, though the source link is broken. In it he mentions that because of the experiments done on Wrathion's egg, he developed early. Really early.

    "When we had written that questline in the Badlands there, we knew that this would be a cool story thread to pick up some day. But if you really think about how long it would take a dragon to mature and start developing his own thoughts, it'd be a long time. Like decades. And we didn't really have time for that! So I said well, OK -- if we ask people to buy into this one thing, that because of these experiments he can have some self-awareness early on, wow - what an interesting character that is!"

    The full thing about Wrathion can be read on his Wowpedia page:
    https://wow.gamepedia.com/Wrathion

    Also from that quote, we are told it takes decades for a dragon to mature and develop its own thoughts. So it sounds like the whelp stage lasts for several decades before they move on to becoming a drake.

    Drakes are "still relatively young compared to their ancient brethren", according to Wowpedia. Of course, that's relative to other dragons, so that could be a very long time.

    That being said, it couldn't be more than 500 years, as past that point dragons are considered Wyrms, full-fledged adults.

    And preceding the Wyrm stage but after Drake, mature dragons are their own stage in development.

    So to wrap things up, dragons begin as whelps, after a few decades they become drakes. Some time before 500 years they become mature dragons, and after 500 they are considered Wyrms.

    11/02/2018 03:46 PMPosted by Pottaz
    Are drakes the dragon equivalent of a teen? And if they are, do they have similar mindsets to that of a younger person, or are they still as wise and mysterious as their elders?
    Given the above, I would say drakes would be the dragon equivalent of teens, with dragons being young adults.

    Going back to what Dave Kosak said, if we assume that whelps become drakes once they've matured and start forming their own thoughts, very young drakes might have a teenager-like mindset. Most drakes we see in game seem to act more like full-fledged dragons, however. Maybe the ones we see are just older? Unfortunately, there's not much to go on here that I could find.

    Overall, what Kersia said seems to be the most plausible, as far as age groups go.

    My sources for all this stuff, pulled entirely from Wowpedia:
    https://wow.gamepedia.com/Wrathion
    https://wow.gamepedia.com/Dragon_whelp
    https://wow.gamepedia.com/Drake
    https://wow.gamepedia.com/Dragon
    https://wow.gamepedia.com/Wyrm

    Totally open to anyone more knowledgable in this field to swoop in and correct me on anything. This is just what I could find from a cursory search.
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    Sunpai, I know you're a new poster around here, but your dedication to the facts and ability to research is awesome. :) Good job doing the stuff you do. Keep it up.
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    11/03/2018 12:56 AMPosted by Cannibal
    Sunpai, I know you're a new poster around here, but your dedication to the facts and ability to research is awesome. :) Good job doing the stuff you do. Keep it up.


    Agreed. I was at work so I lacked time to access to much of the newer stuff.

    I thought I read something else a while ago, but that memory is old and given my ages, I've not had to deep dive so far into their aging.

    Was going to research into it more when I got home but ye got it handled. :3
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    Thanks! It means a lot to hear that. I'm just glad I can help people out sometimes, though I couldn't do it without the hard work of you and everybody else that contributes to Wowpedia. You guys provide an invaluable service to the WoW community.
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    That being said, there is a suggestion from a goblin in Shadowmoon that draenei shed their horns seasonally, and female draenei in particular are very subconscious about it. I believe that's the closest in lore we've got.


    Thanks for the hilarious mental image. Who knew orcs had a way to ethically collect draenei horns this entire time?
    312
    Is there any concrete sources that tell us where the human trappers in the Grizzly Hills come from?

    From what I can find, there are three possibilities; 1) original inhabitants descended from vrykul, though we’re told they were killed when the Lich King first developed the plague of Undeath. (2) Peasantry descended from the forces brought by Arthas to support his forces. (3) Peasantry brought by the Alliance in the build up to the to their push against the Arthas as the Lich King.

    Can the lore keepers here add anything?
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    I don't like the trope of druids as tree-hugging nature priests. Originally the conception of druids was as sorcerers and wisemen who used rituals to master their world. As such, until recently I've laid off trying the druid class. Now, having tried it up to a certain level, I'm finding I enjoy the flexibility and familiarity of the ranged damage dealing build.

    My question: Is it possible to use astral/nature magics without being a part of the Cenarion Circle or Harvest Witches of Gilneas? How exactly is one initiated into using Nature magic?

    For my worgen druid character, I was hoping to create a sorcerer of sorts who reveres the Guardian Spirit Goldrinn. I haven't gotten all that far into the concept more than that... Was hoping I could spitball some ideas in this forum.
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    11/06/2018 06:32 PMPosted by Goramn
    Is there any concrete sources that tell us where the human trappers in the Grizzly Hills come from?

    From what I can find, there are three possibilities; 1) original inhabitants descended from vrykul, though we’re told they were killed when the Lich King first developed the plague of Undeath. (2) Peasantry descended from the forces brought by Arthas to support his forces. (3) Peasantry brought by the Alliance in the build up to the to their push against the Arthas as the Lich King.

    Can the lore keepers here add anything?
    Unfortunately, I could not dig up anything concrete, despite my best efforts. We're simply not provided any solid information about this.

    However, it is quite clear that they aren't a part of the Alliance already, since we have quests trying to recruit them (if you're Alliance, that is). That rules out your third option.

    The first option, that they're humans from before the Lich King's arrival, seems to be the most likely. Possibly a retcon, given that we're told that they were all killed with the plague of undeath after the Lich King arrived as you said; though I recall reading somewhere that the Grizzly Hills have been practically untouched by the Scourge thanks to the native furbolg. I can't seem to find that info again, though, so it's possible I was mistaken.

    11/09/2018 03:38 PMPosted by Walthorn
    I don't like the trope of druids as tree-hugging nature priests. Originally the conception of druids was as sorcerers and wisemen who used rituals to master their world. As such, until recently I've laid off trying the druid class. Now, having tried it up to a certain level, I'm finding I enjoy the flexibility and familiarity of the ranged damage dealing build.

    My question: Is it possible to use astral/nature magics without being a part of the Cenarion Circle or Harvest Witches of Gilneas? How exactly is one initiated into using Nature magic?

    For my worgen druid character, I was hoping to create a sorcerer of sorts who reveres the Guardian Spirit Goldrinn. I haven't gotten all that far into the concept more than that... Was hoping I could spitball some ideas in this forum.
    Harpies use nature magic, and they certainly aren't druids. The Arakkoa also use solar magic, and they seem to go about it in a more sorcery-like way like what you want.

    Source about the Arakkoa:
    https://twitter.com/_DonAdams/status/652928687751360512

    Given that information, I'd say your concept so far is just fine.
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    First and foremost, apologies for the lack of replies. Been very busy with irl work and had to take a break from a lot of my WoW responsibilities for a while.

    11/04/2018 11:07 PMPosted by Olakar
    As someone interested in RPing a Zandalari, what are some of the more niche classes more tied to their culture/troll culture that one might RP as? Especially for priests and monks, which have a lot of leeway in Zandalari lore I feel.
    There's the augurs, who spend their time casting bones or reading leaves for insight, working with the mojo of the elements. They wear a distinctive chest piece called a hauberk, fitted with the finest silks and cloths, acting as a symbol of their divinity and authority. Their closest class would be a restoration shaman or a mistweaver monk.

    The confessors are the troll's version of priests, acting as judges amongst the tribe, preserving them from evil. They keep their tribe in tune with the spirits and wear distinctive mantles, woven with powerful mojo that aids them in healing and protecting their tribe.

    11/06/2018 06:32 PMPosted by Goramn
    Is there any concrete sources that tell us where the human trappers in the Grizzly Hills come from?
    Chronicle Volume 3 and a few in-game quests that Sunpai mentions hint at them being early settlers of Northrend before Arthas' arrival, so the general assumption is that they've been living there for some time before the Scourgewar.

    11/09/2018 03:38 PMPosted by Walthorn
    Is it possible to use astral/nature magics without being a part of the Cenarion Circle or Harvest Witches of Gilneas? How exactly is one initiated into using Nature magic?
    Technically speaking, one cannot be a true druid unless they've attained the title through the Cenarion Circle, but I can imagine many nature magic users who aren't affiliated with them, might find this entitled and untrue. One can be in tune with nature and use its powers without a connection to either, and I agree your concept is sound and entirely plausible.
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    A mage could mask or nullify the scent of something by using magic, right? The first thing that comes to mind is the small questline before the Culling of Stratholme dungeon where the scourge disguise plagued grain in order to get it into the city.
    I don't recall how effective the disguises were, just that the adventurers were able to see through it easily enough and dispell it with a quest item provided by Chromie.
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    11/11/2018 02:04 AMPosted by Flarepulse
    A mage could mask or nullify the scent of something by using magic, right? The first thing that comes to mind is the small questline before the Culling of Stratholme dungeon where the scourge disguise plagued grain in order to get it into the city.
    I don't recall how effective the disguises were, just that the adventurers were able to see through it easily enough and dispell it with a quest item provided by Chromie.
    https://wow.gamepedia.com/The_Schools_of_Arcane_Magic_-_Illusion

    Though it only mentions invisibility and inaudibility, I'd imagine illusion magic covers all manner of deceptive spells. The plagued grain crates are even said to be under the effects of an illusion.

    The last line of that source I linked mentions that divination spells can counteract illusions; I'd imagine this is why we were able to dispel the illusions easily. Being from the future, we knew the plagued grain had to be there somewhere. Going around poking every crate with divination magic would certainly unveil it. In my opinion, the fact that we only find a limited number of crates 'suspicious' is probably just for gameplay reasons, so that people aren't spending an hour running around dispelling every crate in the area.

    A mage would be able to mask/nullify something's scent. Unless someone knew something was up and tried to use divination magic to break the spell, it'd likely be quite effective as well.
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    Unfortunately, I could not dig up anything concrete, despite my best efforts. We're simply not provided any solid information about this.

    However, it is quite clear that they aren't a part of the Alliance already, since we have quests trying to recruit them (if you're Alliance, that is). That rules out your third option.

    The first option, that they're humans from before the Lich King's arrival, seems to be the most likely. Possibly a retcon, given that we're told that they were all killed with the plague of undeath after the Lich King arrived as you said; though I recall reading somewhere that the Grizzly Hills have been practically untouched by the Scourge thanks to the native furbolg. I can't seem to find that info again, though, so it's possible I was mistaken


    Thanks. I read wowpedia all the time, and try to read every bit of in-game text I can find, and I just haven’t found much about these people. I appreciate a second set of eyes!
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    I posted my own thread, but it may be best to ask here.

    A friend just came back to the game (yay!) and we wanted to RP on Horde for a bit, and the idea was pitched to RP Sin'dorei who had been raised in undeath (Kind of like Dark Rangers)

    Is that possible? Being Forsaken but using a different model?

    I should have posted here, but I didn't even see this thread since I was using my phone -_-
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    11/13/2018 10:48 PMPosted by Sunwhisper
    Is that possible? Being Forsaken but using a different model?
    Most definitely, Sylvanas even directly offers to raise Lor'themar's troops at the Siege of Orgrimmar, and during patch 8.1 she raises some blood elves as well, such as Lorash.

    https://wow.gamepedia.com/Lorash_Sunbeam
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    Thanks =). I really wanted to try Forsaken RP (Even though i'm against Sylvanas, so I might just have her go against her after she's raised), I just could never get behind the models.