Absolutely right your grace, we can only aspire to your skill
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Aspects? Aspects based on wild beasts?
Beast(s) Mastery?
Yes. Hence why I said what I did in that quote.
We already discussed this in the GD thread.
Improves melee functionality as you say, was, like everything else in the SV category, there for the sake of survivability.
Why quote + copy-paste your own statement?
Anyway, Iâm not trying to make you hate SV.
UhmâŚIâm not?
I believe I said as much.
The class was designed in the way that it was.
You had the talent category âBeast Masteryâ containing everything to do with beasts(bestial fantasy/nature) and pets.
The category âMarksmanshipâ contained everything that focused on the ranged weapon itself.
Survival, yes by intended design, focused on all other features/elements of the class in a way that opted for increasing your survivability.
Whether that was through more melee-based utility or improved traps or straight up defensive bonuses, same thing really.
Even more damage output, in some particular situations, came from SV. But still, it was a way for you to focus on Survivability.
I never said this.
What I said was that the spells you started with, did not define an exclusive specialization or playstyle, like they often do today(in BfA).
In the modern game? Yeah sure. Many players seem to like it.
The point with our discussion earlier, is that in Classic or Vanilla, SV as you say, IS NOT A SPEC.
We did not have specializations back then. They were implemented in Cataclysm.
Back then, we only had the class as a whole.
Anything you found in your spellbook(no matter in what tab you found it) was there for the entire class.
Not just a part of the class.
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Its a melee spec nowâŚdeal with it.
I dont care that you dont like it. I dont care that you cant handle that it was apparently a melee hybrid from classic. Im ignoring you from this point on as you are WASTING my time
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Youâre certainly smart enough to know full well that you were implying that SV was just filled up with stuff that didnât fit into either MM or BM, versus SV being the spec designed as the melee/trapper spec with spells correlated to that.
I donât play the spec. What are you on?
This is the first of multiple instances in this post where you flat out ignore the part you actually quoted and respond with random nonsense.
People donât take Butchery because itâs frankly not very good, period. It might work out to be great at your level, particularly with trash mobs that die in 5 seconds flat. But it falls behind in any situation other than having a large amount of mobs that die very quickly. Hydraâs Bite pulls ahead in 2-3 target cleave and Guerilla Tactics in single target and 5+ cleave.
I donât know what youâre implying by pointing out how many people are taking Butchery, but I certainly hope you arenât implying that all the max-level Survival Hunters just donât know what theyâre doing.
I also donât know why youâre repeating to me that I should âstop trying to force the spec to play as rangedâ. Like I said, I donât play it. Iâm also fully aware that itâs a melee spec. Perhaps you should give this spiel to the multitudes of people who truly believe Survival is viable when staying at ranged. Iâm not one of those people.
Youâre playing in utterly irrelevant, unbalanced, low-level content that you vastly outgear and outplay while most people are half-AFK and pass through that level range within an hour. Itâs utterly ridiculous how youâre continuing to pretend your level 60 experience amounts to anything.
Again, not even related to what I typed, not to mention the ridiculousness of arguing that SS and WFB are negligible elements of Survivalâs toolkit. You have no idea how theorycrafted to hell and back max level content is. If Survival was one talent swap away from blowing every other spec in the game away youâd better be damn sure all the PvE Survival Hunters would be rushing to it right away.
You do not possess hidden knowledge other Survival Hunters donât have
Besides, what I was referring to was this bizarre stance that Survival being melee is warranted by its damage output. Itâs just silly. Ranged Survival had extremely strong tuning at times. Itâs irrelevant when discussing whether or not Survival should be a melee spec.
I included the part you quoted to demonstrate how you once again completely ignored what I typed and went on to reiterate the same nonsense.
Read literally the first few words of what you quoted. Iâll put it in big text to help:
I did not say SS and WFB were the best abilities.
I am NOT talking about the TUNING of these abilities. This is a matter of THEMATICS. Thematically WFB and SS are far, far better fits for the historic identity of Survival than any of the melee stuff or the BM ripoff stuff. Butchery could just as easily be a Warrior talent.
Anyway, like I said, WFB and SS are important parts of a Survival Hunterâs toolkit. No, you donât just do nothing but spam Raptor Strike and Butchery.
BM is the pet spec; it should be the one with the focus on the pet. If other Hunter specs get all the iconic BM stuff that significantly devalues BM. Their pet interaction should start and stop at having a pet. The point of class design is to have a strong foundation and building 3 distinct themes on top of that. Survival being a melee spec using BM stuff achieves the impossible by simultaneously failing to build on the core Hunter identity while still infringing on another Hunter specâs identity.
Before Legion we had Marksmanship with Chimera Shot and Aimed Shot and Survival with Explosive Shot and Black Arrow. We didnât share those abilities between those two specs because they were pillars of the spec identity for each one. Explosive Shot did not fit MM because MM was not a utilitarian munitions expert; that was SV. SV did not use Aimed Shot because it was not a methodical sniper like MM. Both used Multi-Shot (with different additional effects) and a casted focus generator, as well as a lot of shared baseline utility, but those key parts of each spec were NOT shared for good reason.
I mean you could imagine how not having Life Tap might be not as big a deal as not having Ranged Survival in its entirety, but sure: Affliction should get Life Tap back. While theyâre at it, they should bring back MoP/WoD Demo.
What a spectacularly immature response, especially given youâre the one who first used the word âneedâ here.
Again with the downplaying of ranged specs. They arenât boring for everyone, you know. In fact, Hunters had a lot of fun with the three ranged specs. If you liked melee, you had 11 other specs in the game to enjoy. Utterly ridiculous to take away one of the only ranged specs in the game just so they could have a 13th melee spec (+ Havoc DH in the very same expansion, a melee spec that is frankly better in every way than Survival).
Cool story. I couldnât care less about your life story. All Hunters did use a pet; they always have. However, the focus on the pet is the very core identity of BM. It doesnât make any sense to have another Hunter spec to also have the very same focus on pets. Itâs not particularly fair to BM Hunters, especially when they lose Spirit Mend to SV even though it was always a BM thing in the past.
Youâre just responding with increasingly immature and unhinged diatribes that have nothing to do with what youâre responding to.
Having an entire spec basically walled off from PvE content tier after tier is tiresome, and not really avoidable when the melee spec shares a class with two potent ranged specs (especially BM). Survival actually had a place when it was ranged spec in all forms of content. Survival as a melee spec exists for not much more than RP niche for the handful of people who enjoy it.
Wasnât talking to you there. Learn to read.
And ranged typically have to deal with the bulk of the mechanics in PvE content. Being ranged is not an automatic I-WIN button.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hGTt35khac
Hereâs me playing Survival in one of the last raids it was still ranged. The flamethrower mechanic on this boss was one of the most fun and involved things to ever do on a raid fight. Ranged Survival was particularly good at it when played well. Melee Survival isnât even viable at that. So there are actually interesting roles that Survival loses out on by being melee.
And they were pretty much all pet-based while we already have a pet-based spec. Nevertheless, there are also bow-wielding priests in the lore. As it turns out, the playable classes are never perfect representations of whatâs in the lore and for good reason.
We had 3 ranged specs because they were the only ranged weapon users in the game. It was an extremely unique archetype and coupled with the pet aspect warranted having three different specs. It meant the game could better explore and represent the ranged weapon archetype. Removing ranged Survival means we now have poor representation of ranged weapons, and the remaining specs are absolutely NOT better off because of it.
I agree that variety is good. Thatâs why we shouldnât have been removing one of the only ranged weapon users, of which there were 3, to add to a pool of 12 existing melee weapon specs.
They felt different when they were ranged.
Better wording would have been âBeing exclusively melee doesnât fit the themeâ.
Survival in Vanilla had a ranged weapon and preferred to use it in most circumstances. Survival in modern WoW is a melee spec with some ranged compensation. You of all people should know better than to pretend modern Survival is adequately representative of the original version.
You didnât create a Survival Hunter because you didnât have a specialisation at all until level 10. You didnât even have a strict divide between specialisations; you had talent trees and your âspecâ was whichever one had the most. There were very few unique abilities exclusive to each spec because the majority of your playstyle and identity was decided by your base class.
All the melee abilities were indeed classified as Survival. However, you still had a ranged weapon and preferred to use it in most circumstances, which is not at all like the current version. You should have noticed the ranged weapon when you created your toon in Classic.
âŚbecause, until recently, it had a ranged weapon and used it thoroughly. You canât dance around this fact.
Itâs not even particularly accurate to describe it as a hybrid. If Survival could get away with spending absolutely all its time at ranged in PvP situations it would, and even the majority of PvE situations (there was some melee-weaving weirdness at max level but it was far from required). It was first and foremost a ranged weapon user. Melee was entirely a situational mechanic. This is the opposite to what it is now where it is strictly melee with some situational ranged aspects.
You yourself have been harping on about how Survival must be played as a melee spec in BFA. Try doing that in BFA. You will get steamrolled in all content you participate in. Because it doesnât work that way.
Nope they did not for the reasons listed above. Survivalâs roots had a ranged weapon. Survival currently does not.
Again, you arenât even playing Survival. Hunters do not have a spec at all before level 10. Having a spec at level 1-9 is new to Legion and BFA (where you are BM until you get to change). Raptor Strike, Auto-Shot, Serpent Sting, Concussive Shot, and Tracking are 1-10 things that you get no matter what spec you eventually pick. Yes, this means BM and MM also have Raptor Strike. It also means Survival has Auto-Shot, Multi-Shot, Serpent Sting, and Arcane Shot along with ranged weapon utilities like Distracting Shot.
And believe me: if you honest-to-god play classic Survival like you do BFA Survival you will get nowhere. Melee Hunter is not a viable way to play, period.
Also itâs not particularly dumbed down now. Hunters in Classic had many more abilities but most of them were highly situational. The core gameplay in Classic was actually extremely simplistic; more so than any iteration of any hunter spec WotLK onwards.
This is massively overstated. All the specs in the game look and feel significantly different to eachother. They may be âhomogenisedâ in the sense that most utilities are shared to some degree (e.g. multiple classes have Bloodlust, Interrupt, Taunt, etc) but that doesnât change the fact that the gameplay loop of each spec and class is entirely different.
Go look at the Survival talent tree. Itâs end talent is literally a ranged weapon ability. This is why you shouldnât try to make deductions about a class which you literally havenât used against a single world mob let alone levelled enough to understand how its specialisations work.
P.S. Yes, Survival did also have talents that buffed the melee abilities. This was situational, however, and only existed for use in PvP situations where the enemy caught you in melee range where you couldnât use your ranged abilities. It absolutely still needed to use its ranged toolkit and getting back to ranged and kiting was a high priority. Being exclusively melee like it is now absolutely does not fit the spec.
Iâm happy you got to get that off your chest but unfortunately you failed to make any real argument, sooooooooo donât care.
You also start with a ranged weapon but apparently you didnât get the hint.
Didnât read past this. Like I told you, I donât care at all what you have to say or any of your pretend concern. Youâre just noise on the internet to me and if you never posted again I literally wouldnât notice.
You were literally not at any point intended to stick to melee as a Survival Hunter in Classic. Yes, even before the 1.7 remake.
https://i.imgur.com/kBVr5Uc.png
Read that opening paragraph. Read the Class Abilities section. Ranged was the central focus of the class. This is NOT the case in BFA.
Any argument that BFA Survival is representative of Classic Survival is unadulterated, dishonest revisionism.
It literally had Auto Shot, Arcane Shot, Multi-Shot, and Serpent Sting in each and every single iteration until it was replaced with a melee spec in Legion.
4 Likes
then you can shut up about it any time now.
uhâŚnoâŚactually BM is the pet SPECIALIST.
the other two specs just arent quite as good with the pet. BM gets the exotics and can double up.
Sorry but this is the game nowâŚDEAL with it. lol
i also started with a melee spellâŚsomething you apparently are having a hard time coping with.
you mean like YOU jokers are responding to someone who SAID REPEATEDLY that heâs playing thru LOWBIE content and you jokers cant stop INSERTING âbut muh mythixâ 
I didnt say CRAP about END GAME content and how THAT should played, palâŚso you can go foam in someone elses direction with that point.
MY thread is about the SV spec and that Im enjoying it.
If you dont. the remedy is simpleâŚDONT play it.
OtherwiseâŚgit gud, as they say
People donât take Butchery because itâs frankly not very good, period
AgainâŚat LOW levels, it IS good and I really have ZERO concern about your opinion in the matter. I did the target dummy work myself. I know how numbers work âŚbigger is better 
Youre being ignored now as well.
I DONT CARE about your crying anymore at this point
The spec is meleeâŚDEAL with it.
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Since you once again either are ignoring or canât grasp the point, Ghorakâs entire argument was that SV wasnât designed to have melee. It clearly was designed to be able to melee since it had melee at launch. MM also didnât have Lone Wolf at launch, whatâs your point? The game has changed and for 3 plus years you just whine about it. Shove off this already.
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thumbs up.
ânot designed for meleeâ âŚhas melee spells 
You can argue all the specs are there to improve the chances at surviving.
Thatâs extremely misleading. This isnât a protection spec. Those are designed to increase your survivability.
The talent tree at inception was there to improve Melee functionality at core of the hunter.
2 Likes
Link me proof of where I said this.
Go ahead. Iâll wait.
The fact that you(along with someone else here) continue to argue how Survival in Vanilla/Classic could be played as itâs own spec(like what we see in the game today), I mean, if you want to stay ignorant just to get to live in your bubbleâŚgood for you I guess.
Stop spouting nonsens on the forum and actually read what other players(me in this case) are sayingâŚ
Really?
I mean, yeah, sure. Fight to survive and all that.
But again, Survival, the talent category tied to the Hunter class back then, literally held talents where the only real purpose was to somehow help you survive longer in combat.
Whether that was through increased utility from traps, or from situational melee-abilities/enhancements for when the enemy got to close for you to use your ranged attacks, or if it came from straight up defensive talents and effects, that makes little difference as it was all there for the same purpose.
Iâm not claiming that SV back then was designed for us to be tanking.
You can focus on survivability without it being about tanking, about mitigating incoming damage/attacks like a tank does.
You mean Outdoorsmanship or?
You mean Survival, like it is on Classic?
Either way, again, no matter what individual talents focused on, those things only added to the core/default baseline toolkit of the class as a whole.
That core toolkit, was based almost entirely on the major focus being ranged combat using a ranged weapon.
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Traps are only usable outside of combat my dude.
The CORE toolkit includes things like, Raptor Strike, and Mongoose bite.
Help me understand what youâre trying to tell me.
Are you saying Melee wasnât part of the theme of the Hunter? Thatâs what caused me to jump in. Bepples even pointed out that his phrasing was wrong.
Almost completely on ranged attack is the same as saying it had melee in it man.
This is so wrong. Savage Strikes exists because if you get in melee you want to do more damage. Yeah, youâre not CHARGING at them. Depending on the class match up youâre peppering them from ranged, then when they come to close the gap you finish them off raptor strike.
2 Likes
Funny thing is I hopped on my joke 120 hunter with his 247 ilvl (I gave up on it about 6 weeks into BFA over the nerfs to the pet and the crap I was farming) and took Butchery and made it as close to my lowbie hunters as I could.
Had NO problem, even at that crap ilvl, pulling 6-8 world trash in and clearing them outâŚmy health or my pets health never made it as low as 75%.
As far as âmuh mythicsâ goâŚwell that is a BLIZZARD problem and we all know that fact. Its THEIR constant changes, nerfs, tweaks and overhauls that cause the numbers problem with any spec.
its almost ridiculous to hear that butchery aint good when I can SEE that MY playstyle is making it far better than I was doing with doubling up on wildfire bomb and serpent sting. I dont like DoTs like that anyway.
SV isnt a mythix spec? SureâŚmaybe here and now todayâŚIâll have to take their word for itâŚand again thats a BLIZZARD thing that could change next Tuesdays update and we ALL know it.
I couldnt give a rats rump about what it does in end game raiding given that I DONT RAID, lol
SV is a blast to playâŚdoes quite decent on damageâŚdid well pulling and mowing down trash in BFA even at suck ilvl.
So Iâll keep playing SV and they can keep crying about muh good old days.
Yeah and they were meant to be placed to benefit you soon after, once you engaged in combatâŚ
No Iâm not saying that.
But it wasnât a main feature of the class. At the time.
You were, by design, only meant to use melee abilities if you for some reason came to close to an enemy. You were, again by design, never intended to purposefully seek out melee range if you had your ranged weapon + ammo and nothing was broken.
Why? Because of restrictions on ranged weapons.
Like I said above, yes, it did have elements of melee-combat.
But those were by design meant to be situational. Not something you wanted to opt for instead of your ranged abilities.
Like I said, increased damage capabilities(including those that were beneficial for your melee attacks) were also by design leaning towards survivability.
Why?
Again, if you came to close to an enemy(for whatever reason) ofc it was useful to deal more damage to them with your melee weapon, as, you could not use your ranged weapon.
But like you said yourself, âif they come to closeâ. You were not meant to intentionally seek that out.
There is a big difference between the above and a spec such as SV today which is dependent on you staying in melee range to deal the most damage.
Whether your goal at a specific time is to deal as much damage as possible or not, this ofc varies.
But that has nothing to do with design.
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Sure, at low levels it might be better. But in the content most people here do, AKA Heroic/Mythic raids, Mythic+ and PvP, Butchery is absolutely not as good as the other choices.
Youâre giving people advice on how to play the spec when you donât do anything besides level 60 dungeons and world content.
Okay, we agree then.
I never spoke about survival today in capacity. The whole point of the conversation is that it was said that melee didnât fit the theme of the hunter. It did. Beppeles even corrected his statement. Since we agree iâll leave it here.
Youâre mis understanding, and itâs my fault for not being clear. The specs are different for sure.
The classes are homogenized. Blood Lust a shaman iconic spell since warcraft II is available for three classes.
You can Disagree, and I respect that.
yeahâŚthe content I AM PLAYING IN, LMAO
and I aint given anyone advice about THEIR game in high level content given that I aint PLAYING SV in.
Is lying your next joke in here?
See this?
its from my OP above.
Not to mention stuff I posted like thisâŚ
âŚTry READING it sometime and getting some perspective on what is SAID instead of what you feel to INSERT here. thanks
SV is a great specâŚI dont care if you dont like it or not. Seriously. I dont.
Never heard so much crying in my entire life over a video game 
Kill Command is a key part of what makes BM stand out as the pet specialist. If other specs have Kill Command it takes away all meaning and distinction from BM. Kill Command was actually a baseline ability in the past and this was changed precisely because of this. Same for why Aimed Shot is no longer available to other specs. When you have something that definitive of the spec to which it belongs they should absolutely be exclusive to one particular spec.
Look at how theyâve handled Survival in the past. Survival was always the one with a focus on traps but they arenât what made up the core identity of the spec, and thatâs why Survival simply had better traps than the other specs (something thatâs no longer the case outside of a fringe talent, mind you). However, Survival was the one that was meant to have the special ammo and thatâs why it was the only one with Explosive Shot and later Serpent Sting.
All Hunter specs have pets but BM is the one that focuses on the pets. It makes 0 sense to have two specs focus on pets and thatâs what we have right now. Remember, the entire reason they said they made SV melee in the first place was that there was too much overlap between SV and MM. They were either full of it or spectacularly incompetent (likely a mixture of both) because now Survival is overlapping with another Hunter spec more than any time since perhaps BC, only itâs BM now instead of MM.
Blurting out âdeal with itâ is the most lazy and immature response ever in these sorts of discussions.
No, I donât, because Hunters in Classic had a minimum range on their ranged abilities and therefore they had to have melee filler. They still had a ranged weapon and primarily used that; something that is not true for current Survival. Youâre the one trying to argue that the current Survival is representative of the classic Survival (without having even spent a single point in the Survival tree, mind you) when it isnât.
Yes you did, though, and thatâs why people are calling you out on it. You have repeatedly insinuated that max level Survival hunters donât know what theyâre doing and only say Survival is behind because they didnât think to take Butchery and they are trying to force Survival to be a ranged spec.
Think Iâm putting words in your mouth? Hereâs you in the other thread:
You keep putting forward this critique on max-level Survival Hunters and whenever anyone counters you on it you duck back into âIâm just saying it works for me at low level!â.
Given that you are actually talking about Butchery in end game content despite your insistence that you arenât, hereâs some SV Hunters that have actually run Butchery on a fight where it does well:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/rankings/24#boss=2333&class=Hunter&spec=Survival
There are only 41 parses right now for Survival because, again, hardly anyone plays it. The top parse is 107k DPS with Alpha Predator, Butchery, Mongoose Bite, Bloodseeker, Mongoose Bite, and Birds of Prey. Thatâs as melee as it gets. There are 6.6k parses for BM (literally over 100 times more) and the highest DPS is 188k, i.e. not far from double the top SV. Hell, my own best parse for Hivemind is here (https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/dGfyBtN71QqApgbj#fight=25&type=damage-done). I was 88th percentile (i.e. 12% of BM Hunters on that fight did better than me) and I was at 126k DPS. My best parse, which wasât even in the 90s, on that fight is better than the very best Survival Hunter and thatâs with Butchery.
This is what people mean when they say SV is not as good as BM in PvE. Itâs behind in both single target and AoE situations and itâs even worse in situations involving both. This isnât just a matter of âtop Hunters not picking Butcheryâ.
Hmm, nope. His argument is that SV was not designed to focus on melee. Which it wasnât. Deliberately going into melee range was not something SV Hunters were meant to be doing. Their melee talents were situational just like the entire melee side of Hunters back then.
I have noticed there are two sides of the homogenisation argument. One is in terms of playstyle and one is utility.
Utility definitely is more homogenised, although not as badly as many people think. For example, while Bloodlust is something thatâs shared among multiple classes, things like Shroud and Darkness are not. There are still utilities that are specific to individual classes; it just isnât as all-encompassing as Classic.
As for the gameplay side of things; again, the playstyles vary quite a lot between classes, not just specs. I would actually argue itâs much moreso than Vanilla because Vanilla moment-to-moment gameplay was for the most part extremely simplistic. I mean, what made a damage dealing Paladin different to a damage dealing Warrior back then? The fact that the Warrior actually had a toolkit to use whereas the Paladin was mostly just refreshing buffs to its auto-attack? Thereâs a lot of handwringing about everything being âbuilder spenderâ nowadays but to me itâs kind of like arguing that everything is the same because they all have action bars with abilities on them to use. âBuilder spenderâ is a term that encompasses a lot of different playstyles even if you can abstract and generalise them to the same basic model.
Making things like Bloodlust shared between classes is a matter of practicality more than everything. It really sucks when something so crucial to a group is limited to 1 class, and it restricts freedom of composition significantly. It especially hurts in smaller group sizes. If Bloodlust were Shaman-only it would have an extreme negative effect on the M+ scene, for example.
I also vehemently disagree with the Classic class design model where many classes are flat-out non-competitive (often because they are flat out unfinished in terms of their core design) and the only reason they are brought to any content is because they are holding some key utility hostage. It strikes me as lazy and extremely slapdash.
5 Likes
NO one cares. go talk at someone else. Im not reading your posts at this point.
Im going to CONTINUE to play SV with Butchery and Im going to CONTINUE to tell others what a blast it is to play.
and noâŚI didnt read a word of your post past the first sentence.
Tired of wasting my time, quite honestly.
nowâŚwaste 15 more minutes posting at me again more nonsense I wont bother reading either.
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if thatâs why you prefer iâm not going to stop you. I think a lot of classes lose their identity with homogenization. Itâs just a difference in taste.
A lot actually. A paladin brought a lot of utitily. He can get a clutch BoP saving someones world buffs. Also if heâs min maxing heâs going spelladin with tons of consumables. I see your point though, they both just stand their and do their thing.
Absolutely, and it should. Again this is just my opinion and you disagree with it, which is fine. Have your guild go out and recruit shamans. Itâs the more social aspect of the game.
If youâre playing to be the best, and not enjoy yourself with your friends and guild mates, I can see how that is annoying. The whole solo aspect, and you compared to the other 39 people in the raid is there. Itâs just not as relevant. Itâs the shift in design that caused that in my opinion. Being able to que for raids, caused you to silo yourself in the game. So everything is about you v.s them. Itâs not bad, just different.
Edit: Just realized how off topic this is. Feel free to reply, but if itâs not about Survival Hunter at release, I wont reply. Good talking to you Bepples, thankâs for keeping it civil.