Quoting things out of context; nice. Any how, have a nice life I can see we don’t get along at all. You don’t desire to communicate in a civilized way at any point.
Nothing is out of context, you’re constantly insulting people and belittling them. A lot of it is passive-aggressive in nature and some of it outright insulting. You’re no better than me, stop pretending you have the virtuous highground.
Yes a lot of it is out of context because it was a component in a much longer chain… If you’re gonna quote me also quote whom I am responding too, and also those who were in the same stream of discussion. Regardless, this is way off topic now. Keep it on track.
I don’t understand How this is made worse by the loot trading system.
This could happen regardless, if it even does in Retail. Which I’m fairly sure it doesn’t.
It seems like a huge leap you’re making to connect a system that was essentially already in the game in vanilla.
Take off the Foil cap on this one, bud.
Loot trading adds no negatives that you could not already do more effectively with the master loot option. It does add some positives though that you were unable to do before without requiring a gm.
No Loot Trading
An honest group
Your Chance of Loot: 50%
Ninja Chance of Loot: 50%
In a 5 man pug an item drops that is an upgrade to you. Another member can use it. Two people roll need. You either get the item or the other member.
No Loot Trading
A Ninja Group
Your Chance of Loot: 33.33%
Ninja Chance of Loot: 33.33%
In a 5 man pug an item drops that is an upgrade to you. Another member can use it and his friend ninja rolls need. Three people roll need. You either get the item or the other member does or the ninja does and can only vendor it. Outside of getting the vendor reward this does not provide an advantage to the ninja’s friend or really incentive ninjaing.
Loot Trading
An honest group
Your Chance of Loot: 50%
Ninja Chance of Loot: 50%
In a 5 man pug an item drops that is an upgrade to you. Another member can use it. Two people roll need. You either get the item or the other member.
Loot Trading
A Ninja Group
Your Chance of Loot: 33.33%
Ninja+Friend Chance of Loot: 66.66%
In a 5 man pug an item drops that is an upgrade to you. Another member can use it and his friend ninja rolls need. Three people roll need. You either get the item or the other member does or the ninja does and trades it to his friend.
This is a direct increase to the chances that a player gets the item. This is ignoring the subtlety of “miss-click” lies and loot trading back in the main city outside of the group.
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Master looter Chance 100% (unless he cant click properly)
Everyone else 0%
By far the majority of classic level 60 dungeons I ran were run with master loot on and oddly enough it wasnt a problem
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If the master looter is the ninja then you’re unfortunately in a bad group where neither system helps you. However if the ML is honest and there is a need roll by several players and those other players collude to trade items with each other you are directly harmed by this system.
The guild raids/runs that I was a part of that brought pugs on board always used ML and kept things fair. That said we never had to worry about people secretly sharing items back in Ironforge if it’s +1 or whatever.
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Actually the new system means there has to be at least 2 ninjas in the group for anyone to get a benefit. The ML way only required one, and now that the oops I clicked the wrong person excuse can no longer work since you can trade it over anyways you actually have a safer system overall that requires at least two people to operate.
Really? No negatives at all?
I’m a staunch opponent of player trading, but I can still manage to squeeze out a two positives from it.
I rarely ran into ANY problems at ANY level range with “need before greed”.
Your experiences and my experiences are both anecdotal, and neither have anything to do with player trading.
There’s really only two positives for player trading: Fewer GM tickets and correcting an occasional mistake.
There’s an absolute laundry list of negatives.
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The new system does solve:
Fewer GM tickets and correcting an occasional mistake.
But as Luceron pointed out:
There’s an absolute laundry list of negatives.
In addition there is no guarantee that the person who was wrongly misclicked wont sell the item back or simply not trade it or trade it to one of his friends.
Call me scummy but if I was in a raid and something dropped in a pug and went to the wrong person and I really wanted it there’d be a whisper for 400G for the item going out.
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You act like one person still can’t ninja loot. Of course they can, and loot trading does nothing to prevent that.
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The laundry list is one item long… there is a new way to try and get loot you shouldnt have. Only its less effective and has far more restrictions than an already available method.
So my anecdotal experience is bad but yours is ok… I actually experience tons of problems with need before greed. Mostly stemming from people not really understanding what gear is useful for them or even possible to equip.
If you type in chat that you accidentally gave the loot to yourself rather than the appropriate person and then dont hand it over you can be reported with the proof in chat. If you dont claim it was an accident well then everyone will know and your rep will take a hit. So the single master looter ninja is no longer able to hide.
Chat is still a public record that blizzard can review in the event of a ticket. If everyone says x and then does y blizz as far as I know will correct it. If you make a deal you are expected to honor it was my last understanding. If the deal is made outside of the game then blizz will not enforce it, but if its in chat they will hold you to your word.
The first of those is why we have loot trading in BfA, and why we will (most likely) have it in Classic. It’s simple cost-benefit analysis.
I wonder if they’ll do the whole SMS-security-token-phone thing and reward 4 backpack slots in Classic, for basically the same reasons surrounding the cost of account security – as anti-Classic as a 20-slot backpack would be…
It’s bit more complex than that. I’d take a bit more time and look at everything that has been discussed about it, and not just in this thread.
You missed the point entirely. Your experience is valid, as much as mine. But neither of our experiences is related to player trading.
The master loot mechanic is fine in the right hands. It comes down to trust and competence. Player trading is a different beast altogether.
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Loot trading is just as much about trust and works fine in the right hands. Explain to me why you think people will all of a sudden start stealing loot now when they didnt before.
The new possibilities I see from loot trading is
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A legit winner can sell his loot to someone if they care more about gold than gear. Thats new, but I dont think that really falls into the bad category, for me that would actually be neat, considering how often I ran some dungeons only looking for a single piece and it either not dropping or me not winning the roll when it did.
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In the case were you are trying to rotate loot drops around to different group members if person A already received piece 1 (useful to both person A&B) and the next drop that would have gone to person B, but person B has piece 2 (also useful to person A) and not piece 1 person A could give up item A so both get something from the run. (assuming of course that the second drop happens before the timer runs out and wasnt equip’d yet)
I admit this will likely not see much use, perhaps in raids where you dont want to equip new pieces before enchanting them but otherwise unlikely)
So I’ll just roll need on everything and use what I can and sell what I can’t equip. “Not trying to be a jerk, guys, but I need the money!”
You don’t have a bad argument, honestly, but can you see how it can also be used maliciously?
I’m not sure what meta may develop from having player trading, honestly. I just believe it’s inviting trouble. As far as master loot is concerned, we primarily used it in raids, where I have said that player trading in raids would not be as much an issue for me.
There’ better ways to make gold, since drops are random.
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Again, why do you think people will just all of a sudden steal when they didnt before. There should always be a conversation at the start of the run about what loot rules are… did you not have these in your groups? No game mechanic stopped people doing it before for the extra vendor gold or for an extra shard… why do you think people will all of a sudden behave different? If people dont follow the loot rules you agree on at the start of the run they will get kicked, just like before. Where is this new danger you keep talking about because I cant see it. Are there ways to misuse loot trading… yes, but there are already so many ways to do it that I just dont see why you worry about this one when other ways are already possible and more effective to boot.
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1 minute is too long
10 seconds is too short to fix genuine mishaps, but is just long enough for someone who didn’t want the item to give it to their friend
loot trading should not exist at all
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I’m not going to get bogged down in minutiae. I had faith in the system, which worked just fine in my experience, because there was no option to do what you think could work for you or whoever.
I’ve already said, most groups at any level I ran, did not use master loot. With hardly any problems. Whether it’d be a ninja or someone mistakenly needing on an item.
I’m also repeating myself about a meta that could become toxic. You’re introducing a system that can be exploited-much more than before.
Why do I think people will start stealing, all of the sudden? I don’t, and neither do you. Furthermore, if you are content with master loot, then why bother even having this system in place?
Maybe because it will suit your needs. Maybe you can roll need and make some money. Maybe you can funnel gear much better. I say, go for it and see if it becomes meta.
I’ve addressed your points. And not once did I ever scream “because it wasn’t in Vanilla.”
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