Okay, everyone knows Venthyr pallies do big damage, but even with this shorter CD with Kyrian, why? H pallies already have an immune, plate armor tankiness, good healing, the ability to immune others, even the ability to bubble tank, and more. And what trade off does Disc get for this? Squat baby, and a bit more half the damage Venthyr pallies do over a whole key?! Logs show this. That’s right, a bit more than half the damage!! And in keys, damage healers do is critical to timing the key.
If you are outraged by this click like. If you are outraged by this blatant imbalance click like and comment. If you are outraged by this give Blizzard feedback in game in your Support/Help menu and explain your outrage. There is no reason Disc should take a back seat to H pallies in yet another expansion. It is a failure on the part of Blizzard. It is a failure on the part of the game developers. It is a stab in the back to every disc priest who enjoys playing them, and who should not feel obliged to play a Holy Pally because it is “meta” and by such a blatantly HUGE gap.
You’re being extremely dramatic lmao but try not to be real quick and try and think about this could you imagine if discipline got the dps that hpal does and still healed through atonement the way they do now?
The other healing specs might as well be deleted from the game if that were true.
They would have to redesign discipline if they gave them hpal dps
Nobody is saying anything like that. It would be extremely easy to rebalance such that disc healing remained roughly the same or average for all healer classes/specs but so that damage with one of the covenants would be on par with h pally! Think outside of the box if you have to so that you can imagine it. It is far from unimaginable. It’s just playing with a few of the numbers that certain abilities do.
For example, you could scale up the damage that boon blast and nova do, but scale back the atonement transfer they do so that the damage was up but the healing was the same as now. That is a very minor tweak on the part of coding.
On the other hand, Venthyr Ashen Hollow could be nerfed so that the damage it does was on par with other covenants, like Disc Boon, for example.
The whole point of this is not to address healing but the damage discrepancy.
One benefit of doing so would be to allow other healers access to higher keys. I was healing 15s the first week of 9.1 with 226 gear, but now with 245 gear I get turned down for 17s constantly because everyone wants h pally damage so that they can time their keys. That translates to either the need to play h pally or simply not play the game to your potential. I doubt that translates into satisfaction with the game for people who did not choose Venthyr pally if they want to push higher end content–and in the case of people who are not sure if they want to continue their subscription or not or reroll, I would bet some just quit. Grinding to get another toon up to speed is dull and time consuming.
If you think it is only people who and want to push high keys–like 17s and higher or 21s and higher, it is not only them. People doing lower keys, like 12s, also have an easier time if they can pump damage.
I have friends who simply roll h pallies and get a high io that way, and then use that high io to get them into keys on other toons. But the score does not reflect player skill so much as simply having rolled a “meta” healer. This takes away from the objective value of a good io score because it less reflects skill and more reflects simply choosing a class that pumps broken damage no matter what the player skill level is.
So to think the problem of broken damage is only superficial is far from realistic.
The devs had an interview like a month or two ago where they flat out said that healers should sacrifice DPS for Healing and vice versa. Disc priest should not be outhealing a throughput healer nor should they be out DPSing a healer that is doing nothing but DPS.
The problem here is that Paladin’s do both perfectly. Paladins are doing twice the damage of any other healer, without sacrificing their healing throughput.
Yeah, and I think they have virtually infinite mana to boot. Without the two anima powers for eating fast and chasing around for mana orbs, disc is and would be oom often in all but the best of groups. This also limits Disc because they cannot choose mana powers to boost their secondary stats, etc and instead have to sacrifice one or two of their choices to deal with their often serious mana issues.
Never mind. The whole mana orb thing is also a nuisance, because if you grab 50 mana orbs in one run, you have also sacrificed a significant amount of time to chase them. In the time you might have been doing damage–and that adds up over time. I know in my case I try to run to orbs when I can hit Penance, but that is often in place of Mind Sear, which means sacrificing damage to grab those orbs.
Edit: I have also heard people who play disc say that they feel they are something of a drag on their groups vs venthyr paladins, and hence, simply do not want to be a liability to any group. Hence, and I also feel this away, if I like playing disc I am conflicted because I want to play what I like, but also do not want to be a drag on groups. Another reason to either give in and play Venthyr paladin or simply unsub until when healer balance is actually a goal for the devs or Disc is op and “meta.”
Sure, but they also spend a global on dps and not healing. They spend a dps global (melee hpals) to build up to a heal.
They don’t do both at the same time, that’s the issue with disc the numbers will be hard to tune to make sure they don’t get over powered. Hence why they got nerfed literally every patch in bfa they’re damage that is.
Sure they can change how atonement works but that may take more than just a .5 patch I think that would take a new expansion
It’s totally doable. It just takes a little basic math to illustrate why. For example, you increase the damage of a spell by 30% but keep the healing done with the atonement transfer the same as it was. So, for example, if the atonement healing of a spell is x% of damage, and then you increase that damage by 30%, you simply then reduce the atonement transfer by 30% of that spell. The result will be exactly the same healing via atonement before and after.
I fail to see why people have all these theories about why Blizzard did this or did that. They make something very simple seem a zillion times more complicated than it is. I honestly don’t think the game devs care one iota about healer balance. It is not important to them, but it ought to be.
If you have played Blizzard games before Wow you would know that balance from one character class to another has never been important to this game company. In Diablo II for example, Paladin damage is insanely high vs other damage doers. And there is nothing–no logical reasoning to justify the sometimes insane difference from one class to another.
Atonement transfer rate is a tuning knob blizzard have used in the past and certainly one they should look at using now. During beta bliz absolutely the nuked the damage of disc’s baseline spells out of fear that spirit shell would be too powerful. Like 30% nerfs across the board to penance ptw and smite.
If they reverted those nerfs, but also reduced atonement transfer rate across the board to make healing equal to what it is now, it’d be fine.
I ran with a Druid on a 15 or 16 spires and through the dungeon, the kitty pulled over 3k damage. He was kitty weaving where his bleeds were a good portion of the damage outside moonfire. I’ve run with several HPAL’s and never saw that kind of damage. My poor 230 priest as Disc was like 1.8k at best and as Holy I do around 1.5k through the dungeon.
I’m not arguing HPAL is broken, but I am suggesting that at least Druids have a way to keep up with them.
Factually incorrect, at a most basic level and here is why:
They literally do, think of one as a hot (atonement), and the other (paladins) as a direct heal aka spender all at once instead of a hot (dawn/glory)…dps healing is just in a different format.
a priest does in fact literally sacrifice a dps GCD if they have to shadowmend, which in M+… they have to quite often, in higher keys no priest can rely on atonement alone.
Ok yeah you’re right they spend a global to get an atonement out or 5 and then for what 14 seconds or 10 seconds they spend on dpsing?
The fact remains, disc priest does damage to heal and that’s why they shouldn’t do really high damage unless they change atonement transfer numbers.
Not sure how much atonement is doing in sl but in bfa I mained disc in season 4 and atonement was plenty for majority of dungeons where there was low failure damage
They are fine on most affixs.
The only affix that make Disc lose value is Grevious, It’s just not designed to heal on that affix.
They are still ok if the players are good but still Paladins just destroy Priests in keys with lower effort.
Like, you have to really be a try-hard to play Disc on Grievious.
you mean in a key you might get to dps for a few seconds and in a raid its 10 pws 2 pwr and then dps for 8 seconds and if you have move during that, even less
You mean when every toon was overpowered with corruptions, essences and gear? Atonement transfer got nerfed in SL as well as our dps
This i agree on. We should not be doing very high dps
It takes us more than twice as long to do the same DPS you are doing (and probably costs quadruple the mana). There are tens of thousands of logs available that tell the same story.
Agree. Blizzard agrees too, which is why we don’t do a lot of damage. We are out DPS’d by even Holy priests, when they focus on DPSing rather than healing, as we should be. Problem is Paladins do MASSIVE damage while having more than enough healing throughput to survive Mythic SoD and the highest keys of the season, on all affixes.
They nerfed atonement and our damage output to balance Spirit Shell without returning anything after any of the SS nerfs. Was even worse for Mythics since SS was never used in keys.
There is no justifying the ridiculous healer imbalance in keys. Blizzard has no idea how to properly scale abilities for different content. Paladins aren’t the only ones. Shaman’s are also ridiculously strong in keys. Paladin’s are just the ones we complain the most about because Disc is supposed to be the “DPS healer” but is outshined in both DPS and Healing by Paladin.
I’ve done 3k dps as a disc priest, but that is about the most i’ve done. In garbage groups though, it’s more like 1.8k dps because you spend so much time doing triage. In good groups who get kicks and avoid standing in fire, etc. 3k dps is very doable for a disc priest above about ilevel 240 I’d say.
Venthyr paladins who know to do as much damage as they can i think do about 5k dps in a typical run.
You need to factor in Power Infusion as well. I’ve been doing keys where I drop a PI on one of the DPS during big trash pulls and next thing you know they’re doing 50k dps. That spell alone can be like a 5-10k dps contributions on trash pulls. If you have 15 PIs in a dungeon that’s probably like a 1-3k overall dps increase just from the Priest.
Right now Kyrian + Disc (or Holy) is looking absolutely juicy. It’s a 1-1.2k overall dps increase whereas Ashen is only 600.
Also, Automaticjak (and another H Priest) are timing +26 keys as Kyrian Holy (and Disc) so it proves that Priests can time the extreme high-end keys. As of now the highest keys timed are +27s.
Yeah, makes sense. But that number, 1-3k dps? How do you know that? I’d like to see an honest calculation of what it really amounts to. I bet you could be off by a mile, but have no way of knowing.
I do agree though, that PI can be an extremely potent spell if used correctly. But I think if it were as good as you say then disc priests would not be ranked so incredibly poorly vs holy paladins. I mean, just go have a look at raider io. Seventeen of the top twenty healers are holy paladins. That is a staggering figure vs disc priests, which only count as two of the top twenty healers.
I mean, if disc priest PI were amounting to 1-3k dps, then disc priests would be comparable in the rankings to Holy Paladins, and they simply are not. There is a huge gap.
And yeah, okay, you might explain it away by pointing to community perception, etc. or other factors, but the bottom line is, Disc Priests do not stand up vs Holy Paladins. In other words, vs Holy Paladins, they are like pale shadows as healers.