Logs Show Venthyr Pally Near 2x DPS of Kyr Disc Priest

Classes Priest
21

Coordinating my PI with my group for my Fire Mage has taken his damage from ~9-10k to 11-13k depending on the dungeon. We just did SD and he ended at 12k.

Proper PI usage is a ridiculous amount of damage.

It’s more than the damage. We don’t have immunities, our 20% DR Cooldown is worse than Hpal, their defensive is better than ours, and their burst/spot healing is typically better.

On top of that their damage cooldown is way more efficient than ours because it lasts 30 seconds and is a fire and forget. It just does a ton of healing and damage whereas ours still requires a little bit of setup depending on if you need to full heal the party during the boon and boon ends much sooner. I end every dungeon between 3-4k dps, even if I have to heal more than damage.

22

Wait, what? As a disc priest? Top disc priest logs are showing roughly max 3k dps. 1.8 to 3.2 k dps (max I’ve seen is 3.4k dps but this is extremely rare) to be precise. I am seeing the same on my main disc priest–and this with 4 sockets, high vers and haste, and ilevel 248 currently.

I looked at the few logs available on your toon, and you are doing 1.4k to 3.2k dps according to them. I doubt these represent all of your runs, and sure, M+ logs generally are limited for all disc priests. And I haven’t looked at many other logs either, but from what I have seen even the top io disc priests are not ever getting close to 4k dps. The average is not 3.5k dps as you imply, not that by any means. It is more like 2.4 or so.

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23

you got maxed conduits the boon conduit at 252 in an enchanced slot is alot more damage than most give it credit for also not many people that i know of log their keys’

24

Go to the logs and see for yourself. And yeah, logs are limited. But of the 50 or so I have looked at the highest I have seen was a Moadmoad log with him pumping 3.4k dps.

My main is 248 and no way I could pump 4k dps on any run unless I did NO healing. I mean, 4k? No way. And even if I PIed myself, still–no way.

https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/character/us/tichondrius/Jinxyminx

(Also, my haste is higher, but that SD trinket seems to not be added in here.)

This is not to say that PI well timed on pumper dps (along with my dps) could actually mean more dps contribution to the group than a holy paladin. But if that is the case (extrapolating to all disc priests), I think more disc priests would rank in the top twenty on raider io (amoung healers). But perception and community perception may have it wrong. I have no doubt that that could be the culprit explaining the blatant discrepancy. But this does not take into account other factors in terms of what h paladins bring–bubble tanking, BOP, self-immunity, tankiness, etc.

Edit: Honestly, I doubt disc is as good as h pally. I am just trying to justify my switch from maining H pala to disc. But the jury is not out? I dunno. Honestly though, Blizzard’s biggest flaw is in balance. Healer balance in this case.

Edit 2: I mean the data is there. Maybe disc is stronger in pvp, but i dont think so.

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You can dissect them if you want, I have many run as necrolord, and some without the kyrian legendary. I don’t know what logs you’re looking at because my group doesn’t log our M+ and I have four random logs in there from an apparent pug. I was also necrolord on the dates of all of those logs but one. The last was as kyrian and in that one I ended the dungeon at 3,176 dps. It was a necrotic wake and I did not have any weapon usage. Only 210 added dps because of the kyrian golem orbs. So I ended with my own damage at 2,970ish and we didn’t pull big often.

I should’ve been more clear. Since swapping to Kyrian with the legendary and coordinating our pulls (which we didnt start doing until the more recent 20s or higher) I end every dungeon around 3k dps overall.

I don’t really look at the logs and dissect them for M+.

I just play the game and feelycraft what I should be doing rather than reanalyzing logs of everything I’ve done. Typically you should be able to tell if you’ve made a mistake that matters without logs anyway like a bad boon or holding one too long or something along those lines.

Both are good, Disc is by no means bad nor irrelevant. Paladin damage is absurd and easy to do, I end a lot of M+ on my pally with 2-3k damage done in 15s-17s and I have substantially worse gear than my priest. Paladin healing is not based on their damage, so their base spells just hit way harder than ours do. We are being carried by covenants, Paladins are not. I also play mistweaver, resto druid, and just recently started playing Hpal. I can and do make them work all of the time regardless of whether they are not meta. Nothing in this game is so horrible it can’t participate in the higher groups of whatever content they are doing.

The justification should just be “I like my priest more.” Play what you want or like.

It is

26

Yeah, but I don’t know why Blizzard has some classes/specs clearly a lot superior doing key things–like healers doing dps in M+. I have played Blizzard games for a long time–like 20 years plus–and I know that some classes/specs are far superior to others in the most popular/relevant content. And the designers spend all this time and all these man hours to make everything perfect, and yet they ignore class balance. Or so it looks. I swear, that if Steve Jobs were at Blizzard and at the helm he would understand that this balance is critical to players. We wholly want to play what we want, and don’t want to have to cave in to playing the “meta” (or perceived meta) just so that we get invites and/or are not a liability to our group vs an asset. You know? And so why are H pallies literally the 9/10 best healers in M+? That is, 90% of the top ten io healers are pallies. And that is evidence of imbalance. And why is Blizzard blind to this? It is blasphemy in terms of healer balance. Every patch they should try to balance the critical parts of the game so that people can play what they want without the feeling that they are playing something inferior. You know?

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I mean, sure, I know. I get it.

It’s just a bunch of design problems. The balance issues come with the design problems.

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I don’t know. I mean, you just need to look at the data. Raider io clearly shows imbalances. I think all classes should offer a similar capacity to complete the highest keys. No classes should stand out by a large margin vs the others. And is that hard to do? Honestly, I don’t think so. The data is there. It just takes some thought and balancing. For healers, things like mana, HPS, damage reduction, damage, and utility all offer something. Some healers are weak in some areas, and this is going to happen. But all healers should offer some kind of compensation for strengths and weaknesses here or there. H paladins just seem to score high in so many areas with very few weaknesses, whereas Holy priests, well… Arguably, they just do so poorly in so many areas… But I digress.

What I mean to say is, why does one healer have strengths across the board while others have so many weaknesses? It is because nobody takes time to compare and weight this ability vs that one, etc. Nobody looks at the numbers and says, well… Hmm… This class/spec is so strong across so many kinds of content. That one is so weak… Why are certain classes sought after while others are shunned, you know?

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29

This has a lot to do with boss encounter or even trash design. Holy Paladin isn’t some phenomenal high HPS healer. It does just enough to get away with solo healing mythic dungeons but offers a lot of utility, damage, and damage reduction. Timers are tight and damage can be absurdly high but it’s not so high that an Hpal’s spot healing can’t handle it or keep up.

Hpal isn’t a spec that could solo heal a raid boss like a throughput healer. Disc is the same way. Disc can’t do as much damage as a Holy Paladin because Hpal healing isn’t based on the damage they do despite them having to do damage in order to heal.

If Disc priests did the same damage as an Hpal then their healing would be far too strong and that is a design problem with Disc. Despite it being an easy fix. Covenants and Spirit Shell are partially to blame for this problem.

Again this has a lot to do with encounter design but I agree that some healers lack a niche that makes them special. Rdruid used to be the “mobile healer” with moving tranquility in Legion. Mistweaver Way of the Crane in BFA was way better than Chi’ji and was what allowed groups to run them to do mass pulls similarly to how Hpal uses Ashen+Wings.

Hpal and Disc are both trying to do way too many things and as a result are both very strong healing specs. They trade high HPS for damage reduction and high dps yet they can’t do so little healing because then people can’t play them outside of raid due to lack of support from HPS healers. Meanwhile the identities of other specs has either been stripped away or couldn’t keep up with the shift of content design.

That or the HPS healers that WERE strong have just been repeatedly nerfed for being “too strong.” Resto druid again being the example. It is still an incredibly powerful, mobile hps healer but their damage and 5 man healing was nerfed repeatedly throughout BFA. If Rdruid could offer the damage of an Hpal or even a Disc priest it would still be considered a top tier healer.

The high IO players of each healing spec are within ~100 IO of each other. Hpal at 2893, Hpriest at 2861, Rsham at 2832, Disc at 2829, Rdruid at 2764, and MW at 2741.

Again, you can play whatever you want and be competitive like all of these “off meta” specs have done.

Also stop focusing on the max overall and worry about the max of the spec you choose to play. Obviously Hpal is the best, but if you’re playing resto druid it doesn’t matter what an Hpal’s score is. You can complete content almost as difficult as an Hpal and this is getting into top 1% territory. Your only concern should be the number one Rdruid score.

30

Holy Paladin damage is so high because of Ashen Hollow. Some Venthyr paladins are showing as much as 7.3k dps in dungeon runs (that is over the whole run).

And are you telling me that another covenant ability could not be engineered so as to contribute crazy damage comparable to Ashen Hollow now? One totally could be, and very easily. And without making Disc healing out of whack. If it allows holy paladins to do insane damage and not insane healing, it could be done with any healer.

Also, my questions are rhetorical questions.

As for comparisons, I don’t see balance when 9 of the top 10 healers are all holy paladins. If you go to M+ logs, the story is the same–almost exactly. Holy paladin, holy paladin, holy paladin, and an occasional Jak, Moadmoad, and resto shammy.

I would add that in the mind of the average pugger who has a key a priest is an average healer that does average damage, or worse. In the mind of the same person, Holy pallies on the other hand bring averages heals, insane damage, and better than average utility. Shammies bring average damage, average healing plus lust and interrupts. Resto druids? Average damage, average healing, and brez. Monks? That is debatable, but if nothing else, above average healing.

These are my opinions. Please feel free to share your own.

31

Correctly utilized consecration and occasional shield of the righteous puts them at 3-4k dps with good gear on a small pull of like 5-7 mobs. Ashen can put them anywhere between 15-45k depending on how much they have to heal, run around, if they used an int pot, had lust, used holy avenger for damage, etc.

No, this isn’t what I’m saying. Ashen shouldn’t do what it does, but it does.

32

Okay, so basically we agree. But my question now is–and this is rhetorical–what is Blizzard’s rationale for this? In BFA holy paladins were also meta because of their insane healing that could not be rivalled–arguably.

And why do I care? Well, a few reasons. But basically because anyone who wants to do the best for their group feels forced to play that one “meta” healer. In my case, I have played all of the healers, but my main for years was a holy paladin, and maybe I want to play something else–but not feel like I am a liability to groups because of it. And not only that. Maybe I want to not be turned down when listing for groups in the group finder because my toon is not meta.

33

I will say, I have a Kyrian HPally alt - and it’s boring. Basically DPS the entire time and hit word of glory occasionally. Meh. But they look darn cool.

34

I saw a group in the group finder with a 15 key saying they wanted a holy pally. I mean, at the 15 level what difference does the healer really make? I can see people saying they want a shammy for lust or a druid for brez but a holy pally?

This in mind, I messaged the guy. I asked him why he wanted a holy pally and he said cuz it was what he wanted. Right.

35

Probably for Venthry? No other healers play Venthry in meta relatively.

36

Oddly, the group did not specify venthyr. But yeah, probably for ashen hollow damage.

When messaging the guy I mentioned that if they had pumpers that I PIed on their CDs that the damage would be high, and that I did nearly 3k dps a lot of my runs.

37

I think at this point you’re kind of just looking for things. “LF h pal?” Well, does it really matter? Run your own key.

Being able to covenant swap in 9.1.5 will be a huge damage buff for a lot of priest players, especially Holy which leans more heavily towards Night Fae. Kyrian is a 1k+ overall dps upgrade over every other covenant and there’s a +40% buff to Divine Star which is about a 250 dps upgrade if you’re pressing it on cd already.

So a Holy Priest doing 2k dps will be doing 3.2k in 9.1.5 if they go Kyrian. That’s a +60% damage increase.

38

Do you know how long I had a 17 HOA listed yesterday (on Alliance)? Maybe an hour and a half. And after that time I might have been able to invite one person up to the task. I ended up just delisting and joining a group only short a healer. Just note that in the time I had it listed I could have healed two dungeons.

Might I add that today I needed the last of ten dungeons on the toon listed below. I literally got rejected for about twenty 15s and 16s I listed for. Most of those groups already had a brez and lust.

I finally got accepted for a 16 when a group who had done a lot of keys invited me. I figure these guys must have looked me up and seen that between this toon and my main I have healed about 130 keys in 9.1.

I will say though that I often get near instant invites to heal 15s-17s on my Horde main. I think Horde makes a lot of way better calls than Alliance, to be honest. Not to dump on Alliance, as I like the challenge of being on the underdog side, but that extends way beyond healer invites.

39

The last two weeks were the absolute worst for affixes and player participation dropped like a rock. Just looking at the data there was a 50% drop in key participation compared to the week before the last two.

This week is the absolute push week for priests though with mass dispel and bursting.

40

Yup, been brought up multiple times. Supposedly we were supposed to wait months as gear scaled. Well…