BS its all made up crap…Dragon flying is not more engaging then steady flight is now…call it what you freaking want but its still a dish on Disabled players making them physically either sick or in pain and if I could I’d tell those 3 right to their face how they are making a mockery of of Disabled players by forcing them into either using a flight that makes them sick or in pain or have to flat foot it on ground mounts…if one type of flight is available day 1 then both should be and not mock Disabled players.
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I feel like you are continuing to argue for no purpose here.
For peole who cannot dragonfly either because they can’t physically or because they get sick, it messes with people who can’t do dragonflying by designing an area with flying in mind but not allowing them to use flying they can use.
In previous versions it was designed for ground mounts…that they could use. Then steady flight, that they could use. In Dragonflight it then went to this new situation. Areas designed for flying, but steadyflight was locked completely and only unlocked after a year wait, long campaign and then a tedious unlock.
Now it is still designed for flight, and the first play through they can’t fly because of issues.
So peole who played through 9 expansions, now have to deal with a different addition to a game that they can’t play. It is designed around it, and they are asking for steadyflight to let them. The downside to steadyflight seems design only and pretty minor…especially when compared to what almost anyone who can use dragonflight can manage.
So the ROI comes into play, and question still stands.
1 side is saying, hey this sucks for us, and we feel like it puts us on a different playing field than we were before when all of us could use every transportation type. We would be fine if you just gave us steadyflight
vs
2 well we wouldn’t mind steadflight, but these guys are whiners so let’s not give it to them because this is just fine.
That’s just silly. Just give it to them. Who cares? Why is it a big deal at all, and how could the description they gave for why they did it balance against even one disabled person feeling like they are not heard here?
It just seems like locking it gives the game nothing but unlocking it would help some people enjoy it more.
So, I say either fully unlock it, or put the new speed boost behind the campaign end. Seems to me like that would make more people happy. It might be a small number of people…but a net gain is a net gain.
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This is hilarious, because anytime people try to talk about game design, and how both flights operate mechanically, the conversation is immediately dismissed, and people say inane things like “Flight is the same thing as rogue’s stealth”.
This has been going on for a decade, so please spare me with the “why can’t you just talk about game design”. I would love to talk about design, and how flying, steady or dynamic, changes the way we interact with the world.
The problem is that people that MUST HAVE FLYING OR ELSE are unwilling to discuss any of that, because they understand that flying allows the player to separate themselves from the game world, by… flying over any object, word geometry, monsters etc.
They are not actually willing to discuss that in good faith, because it would end up with admitting that a pathfinder time gate, or at a minimum what Blizzard is doing in TWW is actually healthy for the game.
So maybe ask those people to actually discuss design decisions for once. Instead of making up hyperbolic nonsense like “ADA violations” and “discrimination” and whatever else they come up with thinking its a slam dunk to get what they want.
Why talk about game design, when you can frame this as a moral and ethical imperative to allow players to cheese content by flying over everything?
I would consider saying hello to someone to be the first opportunity to give respect. Especially if there is a culture/language/age difference.
I wouldn’t think it was, depending on the circumstance. People find themselves in situations with strangers where the tiniest of respect goes miles to establishing a safe, trustworthy interaction (or non-interaction).
Starting off with anything else, I might choose not to even respond!
Disagree. It’s a:
Thing.
I view respect as something more deeper than surface level socializing.
I’m curious what you think “designed with flying in mind” means. By all accounts from people who payed the beta, you can complete the leveling campaign on the ground. They have advised that for any quest that involved dynamic flight, there is a taxi option where you can opt out of the dynamic flying part if you want.
One person on the forums said they purposefully leveled while grounded to find and report any instances where being on the ground was an issue. They did this to help ensure that those who cannot use dynamic flying could complete the content.
This sounds to me like Blizzard purposefully chose to design the game with grounded gameplay in mind, no?
That is spot on! Well said Derkz, and thanks for the laugh (“crafts an answer from their butt”)
priceless! LOL! 
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I don’t know everyone. I have respect for as many people as I can, I want to say ‘everyone.’ Repsect… is just given. If people become disrespectful, that’s everyone’s opportunity to remind them to be respectful in a respectful manner.
When you start from a place of respect, things go better for everyone. Respect doesn’t need to be this ‘deep thing’ you hold in reserve for only those who ‘deserve’ it. Many things in life happen on a spectrum. Those who apportion their energy properly, have the most success in life.
If I walk into a shop, say hello, ask the guy at the counter for a thing, pay for it, say thank, and leave: 100% respectful, didn’t cost me anything, and the guy has zero reason to be rude to me.
Probably going to have a better time than if I decide I don’t like the way the guy said ‘hi’ to me, and refuse to interact.
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You literally refused to answer my question about game design and then went on multiple rants about how people won’t talk about game design.
I don’t care about them. We are having a conversation here and you are refusing to answer the game design question of which would be better based on what would cause the most player anger.
I have told people like Moused multiple times that saying people are against the handicapped or abelist doesn’t help the conversation. I think it actively hurts the whole thing.
So stop framing it as a you vs them thing, and talk about game design or realize and admit you do the same thing here. Right now, you are fighting them, and not talking about the issue. So let’s get back to it.
Edit: just to get this all in one
“I’m curious what you think “designed with flying in mind” means.”
It means they designed it knowing that you can fly at the time you play through the content. So time to travel changes, can you jump over an area changes, elevations change…a whole bunch of stuff changes if you are making any challenge for someone with DF available.
1 Like
No, it’s not.
They can, that’s their right, but the person doesn’t have to “respect” anybody.
Not all the time, no.
It is.
This isn’t the same as “respect”.
Not always true. And, this isn’t “respect”, this is just navigating social structures.
I’d be curious to know how you define the word ‘respect.’ I understand you think it needs to be earned, but I just want to get an understanding of the definition we are working from.
Not a gotcha, promise.
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Basic respect is given, like respect for being a fellow human being, respect for the job/position (chief of police for instance), ect. Respect beyond that basic level is earned.
You asked a loaded question that had nothing to do with game design. Your question was phrased such that answer #2 would be the correct answer, which ‘coincidentally’ aligned with your viewpoint.
This is again, hilarious. I would love to talk about actual game design. You’re pushing a different conversation. You’re saying “Some players will be happier if they made x change” and if they don’t make that change (that you support) it is therefore bad game design.
Blizzard has made significant concessions to players who want to skip over everything, especially with how they’re treating flying now. That is at the expense of engagement with the game world.
They don’t bother designing engaging world content because the current expectation is that players will just fly over any of the ‘pain points’. They will hover in place above the quest objective, waiting for the opportune time to land so they can avoid all combat, avoid the castle walls, fly over the canyon, fly up the tall cliff. They remove themselves from the actual game world in the spirit of ‘efficiency’.
Game design is more than “give me what I ask for”.
20 years and the players have found something to complain about everything ever done in and to WoW. It never stops and it never will.
I mean, this comes across differently than ‘respect is earned’ so +1 for that. But, in any instance where ‘deeper respect’ is going to occur/exist, it still has to be just given.
Unless you’re going to sit down with a person and hash out what the rate and terms for respect to be earned are, respect is rarely, if ever… earned.
It’s more often… nearly always… just given.
Think about it. Worst situation you can think of where someone was being disrespectful. What prevailed? More disrespect? Or people with sane minds stepping, giving respect, and moving the situation forward?
Probably the latter, whatever example you want to give.
Not when Blizzard is expecting us to buy what they are designing. Game is exactly: give me what I ask for.
Yeah I am inclined to agree. This concept of all or nothing is also not matching up with reality.
For me personally I am no longer consistently subbed because of PF shenanigans. There is so much to do and no reason to feel like you have to do it.
WoW is a big game beyond end game and end game has seen less care for it lately as god comps in M+ reigned supreme for a long time.
The key is that TBC normal flying being available doesn’t hinder other people’s ability to quest or interact with the world or devalue how you view DR.
The view on DR is subjective as is with TBC normal flying.
If you want to use objective measures both DR and TBC normal flying requires you to land to complete content.
So, now we are full circle again debunking the WoD arguments for the existence of patchfinder once more.
Just like a Rogue can bypass many things and hover for hours on end in stealth at some point you have to leave stealth to engage. Engagement happens on the ground in WoW. Always has always will.
So you see my question as biased and your response to that percieved bias is to ask
Which I honestly answered.
Just so you know…I don’t care. I use dragonflight. Only thing I hate is the clunky change back and forth mechanic. I think that stinks.
I think people saying it is a big hassle for them have a point, and that Blizzard reasoning for not just opening it are weak. I don’t care at all for myself but when weighing all the pros and cons I feel like opening it up from the get go with the speed increase behind the completion of campaign seems like the best way to make everyone happy. You get the campaign reward, and you get people who can’t DF (however how small) their option.
If anything I am generally just on the side of more options on how you want to play is better as long as it doesn’t take fun away from someone else.
I agree they have made changes in the right direciton, and that many people here are not admitting that. That doesn’t really change what the best option is though, just that people shouldn’t be calling Blizzard ableist or whatever other whacky hyperbole they are throwing around. That doesn’t help and is just cruel.
A lot here so let’s break it down because this is actually about game design.
1.They don’t bother designing engaging world content because the current expectation is that players will just fly over any of the ‘pain points’.
Seems like a lot of that can be done with DF if you have “mastered it”.
- They will hover in place above the quest objective, waiting for the opportune time to land so they can avoid all combat
Blizzard never said this, but it would give a small advantage…of course I am pretty sure you can just land on something high and do the same with DF…but most people just land on the mob they need to kill avoiding everything in between. So this is a point…but not one Blizzard made actually.
- avoid the castle walls, fly over the canyon, fly up the tall cliff. They remove themselves from the actual game world in the spirit of ‘efficiency’
All of that can be done with DF so it doesn’t apply to the DF allowed but SF not allowed. You can fly over things with DF, and be removed from the game world.
Now what exactly did Blizzard say.
“Until you have really mastered it there is a bit more variance to it where you know with static flight can kind of pop up idle look around you can exactly pin point boob land right on top of it, where as there is a lot more active gameplay with dragonflight”
So they basically said they think Dragonflight is more fun and makes questing more fun! Cool. However they also admitted that once you have mastered DF you basically end up with the same advantages of being able to pinpoint a mob and all of that.
So you can argue the game is more fun with DF, and that people if they had SF would find it more boring because why would you ever DF when SF is there…fine that is an argument for doing it.
So weigh that against the people who find it impossible to play and come up with the net gain or loss.
Hell if you had said “sure people won’t be as mad but I argue the game would not be as fun” at least I could see that as a debate on it. Instead you said that I made up a biased question that just pushed my viewpoint, while missing my actual viewpoint.
That viewpoint is that if the game has options for everyone to play the way they want…they will and will enjoy it more. I play with dragonflight until I get frustrated with some weird spot then I might switch for as econd. I find it to be much more fun. Then again I don’t get sick from it and am fully able bodied. That option being available has not stopped me from using it for any of my characters since dragonflight came out even after I got pathfinder.
I am wracking my brain to come up with any way I can ask this question you won’t find objectionable but the basics are still there. So let’s simplify as much as possible.
Which would likely score higher on a likability poll.
- having fully open options to fly easy but less fun mode or harder but more fun mode from the start of the expansion
vs - locked into fun mode for campaign, then options open up to change to different modes
I do ask you consider how many times you have ever seen someone complain about SF being unlocked here though. This feels so tortured to get over a weird bar you are setting but well…I try.
2 Likes
Do the majority of wow customers want pathfinder or the 5 second cast time to switch?
I agree with this, but that doesn’t mean the major want pathfinder or the 5 second switch
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The second likely prevails, but I argue earned, not given for the greater respect as it will always be up to the person who would be giving it to determine if some one has earned their respect. How may people say “you have earned my respect” over “I am giving you my respect”?
But the thing is, respect should never, ever, ever be demanded.