Limits on Elf magic?

Food for thought, especially given recent events.

Has it ever occurred to players that there should be a huge difference in experience, power, and knowledge between humans vs elves? Especially when it comes to matters regarding magic.

And yet we almost never see elves use the full length of their powers few that there are from Eldre’thalas or the Moon Guard. Other than Azshara using the tidestone to push back the waters without even breaking a sweat. Or Malfurion summoning with the horn of cenarius to defeat Archimonde.

There is also matters of the Kaldorei influence within organizations such as the Kirin tor, or other elite magic organizations? Even after the cataclysm. Only two night elves in the kirin tor were busy looking for their family in Legion.

Most elves have had experience with magic with extensive study over ten thousand years or even a few thousand. And yet they always never unleash their full potential.

It could be the use of a magical source of power that is removed like a battery.
(Immothar, Sunwell, Nightwell, etc) Knowledge without power is just knowledge.

Is it curious to wonder that this reason is primarily due in a larger part to human involvement? Notice how events regarding humans especially the release of the orcs into our world and everything between the two has caused problems ever since.

Is it possible that elves are restricted in use of their powers to help humans or lesser races because of how it could elevate such races or solve problems so easily?

Think about it? You don’t see highborne using their arcane gifts to wipe out Orgrimmar or Lordaeron because of the ramifications such acts could cause. And nature magic is a sensitive area that cant be used for such a force.

Now the blood elves literally lost their greatest source of power along with libraries of extensive knowledge. Such would downgrade them to a level on par with humans in a manner.

And the addition of the Nightborne into the horde would balance out the power scale against the Highborne recruited into the Alliance.

What would it be like to see a night elf mage/sorceror/other at full power?

Given how Illidan used the Keystone to open a door between Argus and Azeroth. Key is just a key that needs to be infused with something to activate and stay open.

Notice how the undead Prince Farondis attacks in Azuna were easy AOE kills.

SPOILER

Given the fight between Khadgar and Xalatath, wouldn’t an elf likely performed far more admirably than a human with over a few thousand years of knowledge?

And the involvement of the Aspects just means them solving a human problem after they already solved a night elf problem the first time.

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I would say without outside factors like Atiesh and that Dark Dragon Soul thingy Xalatath has, there’s a ‘pecking order’ when it comes to natural Magical talent.

For Arcane it’s clearly Nightbourne, followed by the different kinds of ‘High’/Blood Elves , followed by Humans.

For Void, It’s Void Elves, go figure then the Forsaken.

For Fel, It’s likely Man’ari followed by Orcs.

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Nightborne have the knowledge and natural talent no doubt but being locked in a prison city for 10k years leaves them with almost no experience you might say. Practice upon each other is evident but it seems like in a fight its almost tied with transition to a blade.

Khadgars use of Atiesh as a power source was his trump card id say. Without it he was just as experienced as a veteran human mage.

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Can’t remember if this is actually true or just something I heard and internalized over the years, maybe someone knows, but IIRC the reason is that humans pick stuff up faster in some way or another. I think it makes sense; having such a short time to live and achieve what you want to achieve is a pretty good reason to manifest Raw Human Spirit and make as big a bang as you can. Also, I think it makes sense that elves would take more time to study things; they don’t live day by day so much as week by week, month by month, etc. depending on the lifespan. This all changes in more interesting times, of course, but I imagine a lot of elven millennia to be very long, slow, contemplative stretches of time.

As for the hypothetical: no, I don’t think an elf would have inherently performed better. I think there’s a reason Khadgar is as powerful as he is as a human mage, rather than as some elf mage named Khadariel. He’s just a very powerful mage of his time, as Azshara was.

edit to note: this could be RPG lore or even D&D lore I’ve lost in my brain, so it may not even be Technically True, but I like the reasoning anyway. Getting mired in the logical power level of long-lived races vs short-lived races defeats the purpose of the general wacky high fantasy of this whole universe, IMO.

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While Elvenkind collectively have the legacy and so theoretically would likely be more powerful than practitioners of less long-lived species, there are a number of additional factors that may prevent such from being reality. Things such as the standard quality of education, foundational knowledge, frequency of training/research/study, are merely a few key factors to also consider. The most powerful casters, Elf, Human or otherwise, are such because of training, not just potential (although if memory serves, several of them also had that in spades). Training is what should matter most, I feel.

One could argue that the issues set upon the elves might arguably be a major factor as well. Between the destruction of pretty much all academies in the Kaldorei Empire, the later fall of Quel’thalas and resulting ruination of a portion of their land by the Scourge and the lingering aftermath of it all, and the likely stagnation of Suramar as a result of their isolation, it’s very likely groups, let alone individuals among these peoples weren’t getting much done compared to the collective generations of their non-elven peers. The only absurdly powerful elven casters would then be those who achieved that status before their means of improvement was lost, and such individuals are likely to be doubly rare due to being standouts in an already relatively small demographic.

That said, I do think there should be a lot more notable elven mages, specifically because of the stated legacy elvenkind holds regarding the arcane. I don’t much care if any surpass Khadgar or Jaina, but it would be a very nice bonus.

Not sure if it is, but it might be worth noting that both examples are early exemplars of their disciplines using powerful artifacts that likely additionally boosted their power greatly.

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I think it’s also important to remember that Humans have just as much of an affinity for the Arcane, if not actually more so. The elves like to think of themselves as sophisticated, with smooth and elegant methods for weaving arcane magic refined over thousands of years. But humanity is older than Elvenkind in Warcraft. In an interesting inversion of the usual fantasy tropes. Having existed since evolving from the Vrykul in ancient times, long before Troll become Elf. And they have their Titanforged heritage to draw upon. Being descended from beings of Arcane order magic like the titan forged, Human magical ability if anything, should actually be stronger than an Elf’s. Elves simply live longer, and thus typically have more time to put into refining it. Anyway, that’s just my food for thought. Not really an opinion one way or the other.

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Xalatath isn’t an elf, that’s just the corpse she’s puppeting.

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If some recall the whispers of Aluneth, he does point out several factors that support the difference between elves and humans.

“The mages of this city see it as the arcane focus of this world. How little they know, child.”
“Even in intensive study, a mortal mage acquires so little knowledge in a lifetime. It’s a wonder they even bother.”
“The Kirin-Tor. Contemptable mortals groveling about for what meager scraps of power their tiny minds can comprehend.”

“The naga wield magics, yes, but without finesse. There was a time Azshara’s people had the potential to rival the titans.”

Khadgar was an astute mage, but his learning and experience was only the result of a guardian in training. Wasn’t his age a result of his youth being drained or something?

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Not really. Humans have that innate potential™ which allows them to learn magic at an (to elves) alarmingly fast pace. They also wield it without grace and subtilty which makes their spells more naturally potent than those of elves. Human magic is a raging inferno where elven magic is a controlled burn.

Considering the Kirin Tor is the ruling council of what is a predominately human city and night elves, barring the Highborne, only took to magic within the past decade and a half or so I’d imagine there wouldn’t be many night elves within the ranks of the Kirin Tor. There’s not that many non-humans period, really. Beyond those two in Azsuna there’s also a pair of generic Kirin Tor Maguses in Tanaan that can spawn as night elves.

You can only really say this for nightborne, with Thalassian elves only living a few millennia with the majority of their race dead and Highborne being an equally decimated people.

It’s not.

The only time elves restricted any magic was in the years after the Troll Wars when Dalaran went wild with magic and started accidentally summoning demons and the Legion’s attention towards Azeroth, so Quel’Thalas had to teach them moderation.

Human magi could do it just as well, probably even easier in fact given that their spells are naturally more potent due to being without grace. Hell, they already did something similar during the Troll Wars.

So did the Highborne, but unlike their source of magic, the Sunwell is restored and much of their libraries are still intact. Eldre’Thalas was also sacked by the Horde, so who knows what knowledge they brought back from those libraries.

The addition of nightborne massively swings the magical power balance in the favour of the Horde because they greatly outnumber the Highborne, who likely already had an advantage since the blood elves preserved most of their knowledge, as Quel’Thalas was rebuilt and the Sunwell restored, and with the Forsaken counting many former Kirin Tor magi amongst their ranks.

The Shen’dralar were the remnants of the remnants of Eldre’Thalas, the handful of survivors of the Horde’s attack whose numbers had previously been so massively culled by Tortheldrin that they had to abandon the vast majority of Eldre’Thalas.

No different from seeing a human mage at full power.

Jaina can do this too.

Probably not.

This kind of rings true for all elven races - the Highborne were isolated in Eldre’Thalas, the only threats they’ve faced came in the past few decades, nightborne lived in such isolated safety they thought penguins were fearless, bloodthirsty beasts and all that the isolationistic high elves had to deal with were occasional troll raids the Farstriders drove off.

Human magi did not. Despite being short lived human magi by virtue of being out and about in the world could well accumulate more experience and knowledge they could pass on to future generations than all of the magic wielding elven races combined.

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If you ask the Pook, it’s all just Long-Leggedy drama and while all Long-Leggedies are Long-Leggedies, Elves are peak Long-Leggedy especially when it comes to Long-Leggedy drama. So I’m not surprised Elves are peak Long-Leggedy magic.

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Khadgar is essentially the closest thing we have to a Guardian, who has trained with some of the most powerful magic users since since childhood and rubs elbows with the likes of Velen, Meryl Felstorm and wields Atiesh (who grants ‘power unending’).

It’s a testament of human potential, and I think if anything it proves that humans are a candle lit at both ends: they burn twice as bright, but burn out twice as fast.

The Chronicle confirms this, with humanity surprising their elven teachers by working together to unleash a firestorm far, far more powerful than any one of them could have created.

My (fan) theory?

I think that elves have a very strict interpretation of magic, because of their sordid history with the stuff. They learn it over many, many years because their long lives can facilitate that kind of in-depth learning, and I don’t feel like they think too terribly far outside of the box; either because their long lives can lead to stagnation, or because their culture values tradition and isolation from other kingdoms.

Humanity, on the other hand, do not have the luxury of a casual hundred years to dedicate to pursuing their passions. Their mortality pushes them to keep developing, inventing, and adapting. It also can lead them to corruption because facing down your impending mortal coil drives someone to do crazy things, which is probably why we’ve seen our fair share of evil human wizards.

I think that elves, colloquially, have a much greater understanding of magic, which probably leads them to have more powerful mages, more often. But, the human spark of potential really can’t be counted out either. Every so often, we see a human that comes along with the right combination of intuition, intelligence and spark, that just blows things out of the water.

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I remember reading years ago that the high elves were quite impressed and perhaps terrified of humanity’s latent magical potential in the early years of their cooperation. It was one of the reasons they even agreed to an alliance.

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Long ago when Night Elf mages were opened up to play, I rolled one and created a character.

Mordent is very clear, the Highborne have forgotten more about Arcane than most will ever learn. That and the aspect is almost all of the Highborne in lore followed Azshara unquestionably. The few characters we make are frankly a cherry-picked exception. (I know it hurts but let’s be honest, it’s true.) As most became Naga or Satyr. Both races are plentiful throughout Azeroth. And those were the more “noble” with most of the knowledge and power.

Not to mention the fact most of their library’s are either destroyed or have been ravaged by the races of Azeroth.

But if they had access to the Well of Eternity, annd centuries of studying again,yeah the Kaldorei would have the most powerful Magi again.

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One of the basis for this question is the reference to the Moon Guard i mentioned in another post. According to facts regarding the Moon Guard, the server name is based off the organization which even though it wasn’t released until Legion, has existed in lore but likely a hidden idea or scripted plan. Every server name comes from a character /place /other in the wow universe.

I believe this still renders it a faction, crippled as they are according to lore, of kaldorei mages with enough resources, a power source if you recall the coils and arcane sanctum, and a building/stronghold that predates even Queen Aszhara.

Had they not been caught off guard by the contingency of Nightborne soldiers who invaded without cause they may have been able to resist to some degree. Like a family member you haven’t seen in 20 years coming back to rob you.

But this is just my opinion. At this point it makes Moon Guard Stronghold the only remaining suitable bastion for mages, since Dalaran is toast, unless you count the archives within Valdrakken for the Blue dragonflight.

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I think it’s an interesting question to ponder how exactly an elf (of any race) learned and uses magic.

Firstly though, I think that generally a mage can only really do one thing at any given time. An elven mage mage have learned how to cast frost, fire, and arcane bolts, but they’re probably not firing 10 different kinds of bolts, one kind per finger, all at once. I don’t imagine an elf brain’s ability to concentrate on multiple things at once is any better than a human mage’s. The elf might also know a super duper whatsits spell to do things, but war isn’t exactly conducive to making optimal casting conditions - the opponent needs to die and they need to die now. They may know a thousand different ways to cast a magic bolt, but there’s really only 'nuff processing power to do one at a time at a particular speed.

One thing I really liked about the warcraft movie was the scene where Medivh made that lightning wall thing. He was in a super optimal place - high ground so far above both allies and foes that he was practically unreachable. And it took a lot of time (relatively speaking, combat time) to do it. These things can definitely be factors in limiting elven mages.

Another interesting example is education - IRL, people are learning calculus earlier and earlier. Heck, I’m not too far out of HS/college, and I’m already a little bamboozled at how much earlier kids are learning the things I learned these days. People can very easily get set in their ways as they age, and while an elven mage would live hundreds of years making advancements in learning, concentration, and fine tuning power manipulation techniques, a human born 1001 years after an elven mage could have access to all the fruits of those labors. They wouldn’t really have to learn everything from the ground up over the course of hundreds of years like the mage did - they could just jump right into the current state of things.

There are also niche limitations, like the Nightborne. I figure your studies can only get so far when you’re trapped in a single city with the same people for thousands of years. Sparring is all well and good, but it’s not like opportunities to practice large scale spells that’d be beneficial in war were common, and there’s no substitute for actual experience.

That all said, Blizzard isn’t exactly…Good in keeping capabilities consistent across characters, factions and so on. Their world consistency is shaky at best - surely the method for casting a fireball has advanced somehow over the past 10k years, but that’s not the easiest thing in the world to write about when an elf mage and human mage are interacting.

Oh! And it’s pretty established that p much all magic is addicting, somehow (except maybe Light? idk). It isn’t really something you see addressed often, but there was that one dungeon in DF with the arcane crystal-infected dragon who was clearly in a great deal of pain. Elves are probably very strict about their arcane usage over extended periods of time so they don’t end up the same way, and even then they still ended up…Y’know. Blood Elf and Nightborne issues. Fel, arc wine, etcetc.

I do think that’s something interesting to explore, especially with arcane magic, which is kinda treated like the equations-math-superconcentration-college degree of magic, compared to something like Fel. For arcane, the users are likely more reserved - they’re not casting 24/7/365 for thousands of years on end. Not that they won’t be better and stronger than a human mage, imo, but it’s a limiting factor…

That isn’t exactly present with Fel. The difference between, say, a Man’ari Eredar and a human warlock versus the difference between a 10k yr old Night Elf mage and a human mage would, imo, be quite different in a lot of ways.

The Man’ari is probably orders of orders of magnitude stronger than the human Fel user, just because they don’t really need to care about Fel corruption. Heck, they’re so corrupted they became demons and can’t be truly killed outside their home turf. They were probably encouraged - and heavily supported by the Legion’s resources - to go balls to the wall casting as much as possible AND were provided opportunities to do so in war time what with the whole…Y’know. Legion vs everyone thing.

On the flip side, arcane mages, even the old ones, don’t have that same kind of support or opportunities.

Now. I think a lot of this boils down to ‘Blizzard is just bad at writing this stuff’. But it’s also something I enjoy overthinking as someone who plays magic users at a lot of different strength levels. There should absolutely be huge differences between elf and human casters, but we know who Blizz’s beloved OCs are most of the time and it ain’t elves, lol.

Edit: Forgot something! Physical magic, such as Chi and stuff. Also a very fun area to explore and imo provides important insights into how other types of magic would also be limited.

Physical stuff. Elves are still fleshy. A 400 year old monk is still fleshy - I don’t imagine the measurement of their punching impact was completely linear across all several hundred years of their training, just because the physical body doesn’t necessarily keep up 1:1 with increased knowledge. If a 400 year old monk wanted to punch someone as hard as they possibly could, they’d have to spend huge amounts of additional effort just preventing their body from turning into a liquid on impact, if their frame could even withstand generating that much force. Similarly, a 10k year old mage’d probably have to spend tons of effort preventing the strongest spell they could possibly muster from blipping them out of existence. And, as I mentioned above, that’s probably a huge drawback on the battlefield…And I’d love to see Blizzard writing about the methods very old elves have come up with in order to diminish that drawback - such as apprentices or support-mages who can share the strain and allow for speed casting of even stronger spells. Buuuuuut I’m not holding my breath for that level of detail, unfortunately <_<

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The Moon Guard was first named in the Warcraft RPG and later on fleshed out somewhat in the Well of Eternity.

We’re told they want to rebuild the Moon Guard, but nothing more than that. An interesting thing to note is that the surviving Moon Guard magi are definitely more closely aligned with the nightborne than they are their fellow night elves.

It’s a decimated ruin that was looted by nightborne, one of their surviving members even speaks in awe at what he has heard of Silvermoon and their libraries. Their stronghold might be worth rebuilding, but it will never be on par with Dalaran in any meaningful well - least of all because Suramar, Moon Guard but on an unimaginable grander scale, is right around the corner.

Teaching the ways of arcane magic to humans was one of the terms Thoradin set forth in order for allying Arathor allying with Quel’Thalas against the trolls. How quickly, and naturally, the humans took to wielding magic is what impressed them so.

This was a combined effort of elven and human magi.

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Race and age both seem to have somewhat of a limited impact in the actual ability of a mage. That’s why I think we see humans on par or better than elven mages. 10,000 year old Elves, Eredar, what have you, they still get beaten by those who are significantly younger on a regular basis.

It’s also a gameplay/gamestory thing.

Reasonably, there is exactly zero reason why elves should place their respect in Joe Schmo Human whose been practising magic for half a decade. And the immortal Draenei, whose ancient culture was predicated on magic, science and art being viewed as one? Even less so.

But everyone kind of gets along. Elves work alongside humans in Dalaran as peers, at almost all levels.

Blizzard simply doesn’t want to explore that storyline until its plot convenient

And despite this, the most powerful mage currently living is human.

I think this game has shown us many times over that age, wisdom and experience are not indicators of how magically powerful someone is going to be. Some people just have a knack for it.

It’s one of the major problems with having a 20+ year setting which seems to make plot developments based on a bunch of different people saying “wouldn’t it be cool if?” every couple of years. There’s not a lot of consistency and the longer it goes on the more you’re forced to ignore things (or handwave them) and keep track of retcons. Means there’s always something going on though so there’s that.