Libram of rapidity (1% attack speed) vs libram of voracity (8 agi/8 str etc.)

[Ohshiftson-stalagg]

@Gàldin-yojamba

Haste does nothing for special attacks at all - no reduced gcd, no increased damage - str/ap does

Not quite true. Take a look at the top warrior parse for the entire raid:
https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/reports/9KVZqBjyNvfYat1p#boss=-2&wipes=2&start=322&end=2349932&type=damage-done&source=47

The majority of their damage is melee attacks, followed by Cleave and Heroic Strike, both of which deal their damage on your next auto attack. That means you get more of those abilities out by having more Haste.

@Gàldin-yojamba

The same goes for druid tanks - agil (because it gives ap/crit/armor/dodge) > haste (unless you get enough of it) > dodge

No, not true at all.

For a Bear, you have two jobs:

1. Generate obscene amounts of threat so everyone can pump out full DPS
2. Tank obscene amounts of damage because you have a ridiculously high amount of armor and health

There is never a time where really you need both.

For generating threat, NOTHING exceeds Haste point for point. When it comes to arcanums, 1% Haste is vastly superior to 8 Strength or 8 Agility. This is because Haste is multiplicative, so using a Manual Crowd Pummeler, 2 Haste Arcanums, and a Minor Haste enchant on your gloves, actually reduces your attack speed to 1.62 attacks per second rather than just 1.63.

This haste is guaranteed, whereas Agility provides a chance to critically strike, which on average your threat by a percentage equal to your hit chance multiplied by your crit chance. You actually don’t get the full value of Crit Chance because you are attacking from the front and have a chance to be dodged, parried, and to miss.

Strength is similarly guaranteed, but the 16 attack power is a marginal 1.14 DPS increase, or 1.26 with Kings. Assuming you don’t use Haste enchants, but do use a Manual Crowd Pummeler, 1.26 * 1.67 = 2.1 more damage, or 5.33 more threat per second.

Haste, however, takes the same damage you already have (this is why I said it depends on your existing stats) and essentially increases it 1%. If I hit for 600 with Maul on average, I am dealing 359 DPS, or 911 TPS. With 1% Haste, that goes up to 363 DPS, or 922 TPS, which is 11 TPS.

For mitigating damage, Dodge vastly exceeds Agility in value. 8 Agility is only 8 armor, and 0.4% dodge. The armor from Agility does not scale with Bear Form or Thick Hide, meaning it is a flat 8 armor (a minuscule amount of extra mitigation, totally negligible), and the dodge it provides is quite clearly less, meaning 1% Dodge will reduce the most damage throughout a fight, on average.

[Corpseten-runetotem (Corpseten)]

Let’s say you get 10 MH attacks off with a Deathbringer and a 2.7s avg swing time from Flurry procs in a 29s Shazz kill. Let’s say your last auto attack with Voracity would land at 29.7s, but the boss would be dead, so it wouldn’t land. With Rapidity, your attack lands for an extra 1300 dmg auto attack crit. Now you just did 35k instead off 33.7k. 1296 DPS vs 1248 DPS.

3% haste is 3% haste. Why do you start your argument about why 3% haste is better by going out of your way to create a scenario in which 3% haste gives you 10% more auto attack swings?

Really, 3% haste is 3% more auto attacks on average. Except not exactly, it’s actually slightly less due to how Flurry interacts with GCD abilities. You’d do a lot better at estimating the DPS increase of haste if you disregarded the discrete nature of WoW attacks/abilities and just thought that 3% haste is 3% more auto attacks.

[Kherusaan-remulos]

I just assumed it had something to do with aimed shot clipping autos making it impossible to take advantage of haste unless you were a computer.

[Gàldin-yojamba]

The majority of their damage is melee attacks, followed by Cleave and Heroic Strike, both of which deal their damage on your next auto attack.

You did notice the flurry axe oh causing the mh to swing more than it should be? I do remember typing haste is worth less until you can get an extra attack then it becomes amazing. Note the str enchants and not the use of haste enchants?

Haste, however, takes the same damage

Equally gives additional chances to be parried, because you are swinging faster.

[Ohshiftson-stalagg]

I just assumed it had something to do with aimed shot clipping autos making it impossible to take advantage of haste unless you were a computer.

Haste improves the cast speed of Aimed Shot. If your Aimed Shot is clipping your autos, that was already the case before Haste was a factor.

You did notice the flurry axe oh causing the mh to swing more than it should be? I do remember typing haste is worth less until you can get an extra attack then it becomes amazing.

You don’t necessarily have to get more swings for Haste to be better. The increased frequency can improve your DPS.

Equally gives additional chances to be parried, because you are swinging faster.

More rage for the tank, then, which means more DPS and threat. /shrug

[Tuskx-ashkandi]

You need to put things into the perspective of how they will play out in practice.

Basically, Haste will win if it gets you 1 more landed auto attack or Execute in the fight vs. what you would get with Voracity. That does not need to be the “extra” auto attack after X amount of swings, rather it’s any interval of time in which the fight ends after the Rapidity swing, but before the Voracity swing. There is an additional interval of time where it wins by more when both player’s auto attacks land, but only 1 gets the Execute off because the Rapidity warrior has the rage to use it slightly before the Voracity user, and that Execute ends the encounter.

[Gàldin-yojamba]

And to think i typed an appreciation reply in another thread about the amount of time you spend picking apart other peoples posts. I then deleted it.

Hvae semo bda sepnligl and enjoy your day!

[Ohshiftson-stalagg]

And to think i typed an appreciation reply in another thread about the amount of time you spend picking apart other peoples posts. I then deleted it.

???

Are you feeling personally attacked, or something? I’m just pointing out the benefits of Haste and explaining how they aren’t limited to weird intervals where you get an extra attack.

This is especially the case for Bear Druids, which is what I responding to in particular, if I recall. As for Fury Warrior DPS, I can’t tell you the exact math, but I’m sure it follows a similar logic with the added variable of Flurry.

[Gàldin-yojamba]

Are you feeling personally attacked, or something?

Not at all. You go that extra step.

[Valarkin-pagle]

This is especially the case for Bear Druids

In regards to Bear Druids there are 3 Librams.

+8 AGI
+1% Haste
+1% Dodge.

However its important to compare resultant values.

If using an MCP 2% Haste = +1.32% Haste. .66% Haste per Libram use… ie 2/152.

If Alliance, which you both are then:

+16 AGI = +17.6 AGI.
+.88% Crit
+.88% Dodge
+.88% 5 Rage return

2% Dodge = 2% Dodge
No offensive value.

Personally I prefer and use AGI until much later. But an argument can be made for Haste later IMO.

One of Bears greatest advantages is maintaining top notch TPS while maintaining an outstanding tank profile…without much in the way of sacrifice.

At this point in the game, the extra Dodge simply isn’t worth it, not since the boosting of Dire Bear Form to +360% AC. That change alone turned virtually every high end instance blue into a tanking epic, with enough selection to optimize far more than any Warrior could until AQ 40.

[Gàldin-yojamba]

Are you ready for the individual quote and rebuttle per line. Maybe he will go to even greater lengths to look you up and check your raid parses.

“A personal opinion of choice does not need apply to min/max theorycrafing”

Are you feeling personally attacked, or something?

Not at all. You go that extra step.

Admiration.

[Voryl-heartseeker]

Man whether you’re right or wrong about the libram, you’re digging your own grave here. My guild is far from top 1% and our first rag kill was before submerge. We’ve cleared MC with 27 people. The content is not as hard as you’re making it sound.

[Ohshiftson-stalagg]

@Valarkin-pagle

If using an MCP 2% Haste = +1.32% Haste. .66% Haste per Libram use… ie 2/152.

I’m not sure what your numbers are meant to represent. 1.32% haste? How do you manage to get that from 2% haste? What is the 2? Is that meant to be the base attack speed, because that’s 2.5. Or is that the number of arcanums?

In any case, haste effects are multiplicative, not additive. If using an MCP, the value of haste arcanums goes up quite a bit, and each arcanum stacks multiplicatively with itself and other haste effects.

@Valarkin-pagle

If Alliance, which you both are then:

+16 AGI = +17.6 AGI.
+.88% Crit
+.88% Dodge
+.88% 5 Rage return

The Crit is good, obviously, but additional crit is an additive increase to your damage, whereas haste is multiplicative. This is because you otherwise lack haste.

If, on average, 1% crit chance increases your DPS/TPS by 1%, then 1% crit chance on Maul DPS of say… 100… will raise it to 101 DPS on average. An additional 1% crit raises it to only 102. However, 1% Haste on top of the 10% crit raises it to 102.01. Marginally better, but it scales. Keep in mind that haste is multiplicative, so additional haste sources (more arcanumes, haste to gloves, MCP, Kiss of the Spider, Juju Flurry) increase in value for each one you have.

Dodge obviously has…

@Valarkin-pagle

No offensive value.

… and actually reduces your threat by decreasing your damage taken, reducing consequent rage generation, and consequently reducing the amount of extra attacks you can pump out.

@Valarkin-pagle

Personally I prefer and use AGI until much later.

I was curious to see the results of thi–

@Gàldin-yojamba

Are you ready for the individual quote and rebuttle per line. Maybe he will go to even greater lengths to look you up and check your raid parses.

Heyyyy! You stop it! You’re making me blush.

Anyway, yes, I’d love to have seen the results of this, but you don’t have any logs for me to view, not that there’d be much discernible difference between 8 Agility and 1% Haste, really, when everything else being the same would still allow for such wildly varying parses. Yay for attacking from the front!

Would you care to see mine?:
https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/character/us/benediction/ohshiftson

@Valarkin-pagle

One of Bears greatest advantages is maintaining top notch TPS while maintaining an outstanding tank profile…without much in the way of sacrifice.

Eh, sort of. If I tank the main kill target in my mitigation gear, I will lose aggro. I simply don’t crit often enough, fast enough, or hard enough to maintain aggro against people doing 1k DPS.

@Valarkin-pagle

At this point in the game, the extra Dodge simply isn’t worth it, not since the boosting of Dire Bear Form to +360% AC. That change alone turned virtually every high end instance blue into a tanking epic, with enough selection to optimize far more than any Warrior could until AQ 40.

Depends on what you’re doing. I don’t wear gear with dodge arcanums for most fights. I use them on fights like Garr, where I tank all of the adds at the same time, and 1% dodge far exceeds the value of some extra crit and 8 armor.

I’m not trying to hold aggro against anyone, anyway; I’m just trying to reduce damage taken as much as possible. That is where dodge shines.

[Valarkin-pagle]

Eh, sort of. If I tank the main kill target in my mitigation gear, I will lose aggro. I simply don’t crit often enough, fast enough, or hard enough to maintain aggro against people doing 1k DPS.

Maybe if you were a Paladin using blessing threat that wouldn’t be an issue!

It should be noted I was giggling like a schoolgirl while typing that!

Haste is great, but I seem to view it through a different optic. If I’m using a threat set…my threat is fine.

Haste allows a more rapid rage dump into TPS. With that being said that applies exclusively to Maul and not Swipe, Roar, or FF…but can, under some circumstances, place a greater strain on rage generation.

Crit helps rage management. While I agree in most circumstances it isn’t an issue, i prefer AGI until Idol of Brutality.

A single white damage attack from a Bear is a significant TPS handicap. Not only are you missing the additional damage and 175% threat modifier from Maul…but glancing blows will create an additional 38% crit suppression over a Boss’s normal 3% crit reduction because glances can’t crit.

If your a 30% crit rate Bear, a Boss will reduce that to 27% on a yellow attack. But on a white attack your crit will be reduced to 16.74% coupled with an average 14% damage reduction in addition.

800 damage Mauls generating 2096 Threat turn into 560 auto attack generating 835 Threat.

Add in an additional drop of over 10% resultant crit and threat and additional rage generation plummets as well.

I’m not sure what your numbers are meant to represent. 1.32% haste?

Percentage of Total.

I make that distinction because we aren’t the only 2 people in the thread, and some still think that an MCP cuts our attack delay in half.

However with that being said…accounting for multiplicative application then 2% would reduce delay another .04 over an MCP alone for a percental of 2.34%.

I like haste, so I don’t disagree with your assertions.

However I’m more comfortable using haste once I can guarantee Maul use under virtually every circumstance.

Edit: I did counterweight my MCP’s on Thaddius!

[Abigail-sulfuras-846918]

I didn’t say it was better. I said I was trying it… CALM DOWN!
Reasons why:

1. Warrior rage generation relies partly on melee attacks. More attacks, more rage.
2. The majority of 19 twinks are rogues and hunters with high agility and dodge, More dodges mean more overpowers
3. Librams of Constitution are very expensive. Librams of Rapidity are less than 1G
4. If I don’t like them, I can always replace them with 100 HP

[Ohshiftson-stalagg]

Maybe if you were a Paladin using blessing threat that wouldn’t be an issue!

If I were a paladin using Blessing of Kings to generate threat, I’d be pulling aggro on every single mob on the encounter, not just the kill target. That’s worthless.

Haste allows a more rapid rage dump into TPS. With that being said that applies exclusively to Maul and not Swipe, Roar, or FF…but can, under some circumstances, place a greater strain on rage generation.

Uh, yeah. Maul is like 90% of your threat.

A single white damage attack from a Bear is a significant TPS handicap. Not only are you missing the additional damage and 175% threat modifier from Maul…but glancing blows will create an additional 38% crit suppression over a Boss’s normal 3% crit reduction because glances can’t crit.

You never run out of rage to use on Maul unless you are excessively using Swipe. Or… I don’t, anyway.

If your a 30% crit rate Bear, a Boss will reduce that to 27% on a yellow attack. But on a white attack your crit will be reduced to 16.74% coupled with an average 14% damage reduction in addition.

The two-roll system sounds like all the more reason Haste would be favorable. It’s value is never decreased in such a regard. It can only increase in value with other sources added to it.

That said, you’re never choosing between Haste and Crit on your gear, anyway. Only on your Arcanums, which I think makes the choice fairly obviously. If you have 0% Haste, it will be your highest value stat, just because of how interdependent all the stats are.

However I’m more comfortable using haste once I can guarantee Maul use under virtually every circumstance.

I’ve already reached that point. Perhaps that is why I advocate so strongly for it.

• Warrior rage generation relies partly on melee attacks. More attacks, more rage.

Sure, but PvP targets aren’t target dummies you can just sit and whack on. And higher, consistent DPS is worth less than lower, but burstier DPS in PvP.

The majority of 19 twinks are rogues and hunters with high agility and dodge, More dodges mean more overpowers

I guess. The amount of extra Overpowers that will net you is negligible, though, whereas 16 Strength or 200 HP is a considerable increase in your power at that level.

Librams of Constitution are very expensive.

Welcome to twinking, I guess.

[Valarkin-pagle]

If I were a paladin using Blessing of Kings to generate threat, I’d be pulling aggro on every single mob on the encounter, not just the kill target. That’s worthless.

I’m gonna buy you a sense of humor!

Uh, yeah. Maul is like 90% of your threat.

Should be higher, but I agree.

You never run out of rage to use on Maul unless you are excessively using Swipe. Or… I don’t, anyway.

Also agree, but not every fight is single target, and not everyone just raids, which was the point I was making.

Player use case is important.

I’ve already reached that point. Perhaps that is why I advocate so strongly for it.

I understand why you do, and I don’t disagree with it. Especially considering shorter fight durations and less healer stress as a result.

However one of the other advantages is that Bears can more readily swap gear between Cat and Bear depending on need using the same enchant.

Not all Bears are MTs. Some are Cat dps and then OT’s, as just one example.

The simple fact is at this stage in the game, prior to heavy stat scaling, the differences between AGI and Haste are small. In a 120s fight with 1000 base TPS prior to either Libram, that’s less than 1000 total damage.

That is computed using Maul with full threat talents, making it a 262% threat modifier and calculating 2% haste as 2.34% resultant haste.

Eventually fights will get longer, I doubt that will happen in BWL, but it will happen. And of course Bear threat, being linear in nature, will scale much higher, to create additional separation for use, so I can see the eventual argument having more merit.

I just don’t think we are there yet.

[Vodnik-kirtonos]

[quote=“Sortaokay-atiesh, post:30, topic:336177”]
you do too at this gear level. or you are lying.
maybee 1% of top guilds with stacked ranged raids maaayy be doing that on live… but … its not happening with you sport. or your guild.

Ill have to counter that and say we almost downed rag (sub 10%) before submerge before honor was even out. So id argue that we can down him now

[Johnnyderp-arthas (Johnnyderp)]

There is some weird bad information floating around in Classic.

That’s half of the fun. Rather than sit around and argue, if you know better, you can just obliterate them in the game.

Ill have to counter

Those kinds of arguments aren’t worth messing with. “You’re probably some drunk fat loser living in mom’s basement with no job and owing college debts after dropping out when you got straight Fs” doesn’t change the discussion and chasing that line of reasoning is both pointless and a waste of time.

He doesn’t care at all if he’s right. He just wants to rustle jimmies and obfuscate the conversation.

[Vodnik-kirtonos]

You’re probably some drunk fat loser living in mom’s basement with no job and owing college debts after dropping out when you got straight Fs

Dont Drink
Not fat
basically live in A basement (its mine tho)
i work way too much =/
No debt
Kinda dropped out?
Not Fs though