Libram of rapidity (1% attack speed) vs libram of voracity (8 agi/8 str etc.)

I don’t think you’ve done much raiding in Classic, have you?

We have more than enough EHP to survive a series of crushing blows or double crits even in our full DPS gear.

1% Haste is effectively 1% more TPS, which is far more important these days.

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ohh… okay. cause feral druid tanks have TPS problems. lmfao.

2% dodge is a much better stat for TANKING
than 2% haste will ever be.

I dont have any threat problems.

and yes I have plenty of classic raiding experience.
including gear from vanilla naxx on this account.

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The math would not include variables like Weapon Enchant procs, Crit Procs, etc.

Depending on what class and what weapons, I would deviate to 2% haste having the over all better numbers. Short term 32 AP, Long term haste!

Add to that if you are a class like Rogue that can increase attack speed with Slice n Dice that extra 2% could be ground breaking.

Keep in mind that, for Hunter, haste means faster ammo drain. While this should not be a major factor in your decision-making, if you feel the two are bout even then that may be a factor to consider.

Also, haste means more chances to proc any “on crit” abilities, so there is that…

They can if you choose to completely ignore your TPS in favor of mitigation and avoidance.

Once you have enough mitigation/avoidance, you start to stack DPS both for threat and the sake of damage.

2% dodge does not help you kill bosses faster, and unless you are dying without that 2% dodge, it’s not as valuable as 2% haste.

Neither do I. Curious, but how much DPS are the people in your groups doing?

That is vanilla raiding experience. I said in Classic.

Hope you enjoy continuing to be proven wrong that any progressive raiding set up would tank their tank in +2% haste… and not +2% dodge.

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Judging on the price of Libram of Rapidity on my server (2s.28c) I’d say anything that wasn’t that.

Haste is basically totally worthless for Hunters, who sorta want their weapon to be as slow as possible, or at least over 3s.

32 AGI is over 1% crit for a rogue and 1.5% or so for the other melee DPS. So, hardly “minor”

Its over 0.5% crit for a Hunter and 64 Ranged AP.

Agility is better.

Yes, they do the highest amounts of TPS, but if you are wearing pure mitigation gear, you will lose aggro against competent DPS.

Haha, what? Just how hard do you think bosses hit, exactly? We have more than enough mitigation in our DPS gear, let alone in our mitigation gear.

You don’t do high end raiding very much, do you?

What boss fight lasts 5 minutes?! Hahaha.

You have submerges? LOL

How fast was that, exactly?

Clearly not.

… grats? Is that supposed to be impressive?

Don’t care. Players were much worse in vanilla. I’m asking about Classic because we know a lot more about the game now and players are performing on a much higher level.

So… do you have any real arguments?

2% dodge is better for avoidance, yes, but avoidance is not necessary, at least in the current content.

Every single decent tank knows that once you have reached a point that you not dying, you start gearing for more DPS. You don’t just keep stacking mitigation indefinitely.

If you are raiding with competent DPS, your ability to hold aggro is far more important than your ability to mitigate damage. Healers can keep you alive in full DPS gear just fine, and fights are so short that the mana healers save by you wearing mitigation gear is not needed. Healers aren’t even running out of mana by the time the bosses die, so you don’t need more mitigation.

That’s because of the way your rotation works. Only the base weapon speed matters.

1% haste doesn’t negatively affect your DPS in the same way a sub 3 second attack speed weapon does.

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This is fun and all. and your bickering and epeening and squirming is fun to watch… but you already admitted my point is correct.

“2% dodge is better for avoidance, yes, but avoidance is not necessary, at least in the current content.”

My work here is done.

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You realize everyone else in the raid gets raid buffed, as well, right? If you are wearing nothing but mitigation gear, your TPS will be far exceeded by the DPS.

I’m sure you’re not used to that considering what you said earlier. Your DPS are clearly underperforming.

That’s what they hit before armor.

Not at all. The bosses do not swing very fast. Healers can easily keep you topped off. As long as you’re not dying in two swings, you’ll be fine.

Even at 5k HP, you can easily survive two critical swings in a row.

“Progression” through Molten Core was one shotting every boss on our first attempt, bud.

If you mean I don’t wipe constantly in Classic raiding, you’re right.

Ony is the longest fight of our raids, and she still dies in less than 3 minutes.

Ragnaros doesn’t even last 2 minutes.
Majordomo doesn’t even last 2 minutes. We don’t even AoE the fight yet.
Garr doesn’t even last 2 minutes.

You’re right that it depends on the raid composition, though.

Here’s proof:
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/498226542?t=01h46m17s

You can see my name in the raid frames. You can also see me main tanking Ragnaros.

https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/guild/rankings/478177/latest/#playermetriccompare=rankings
We’re not in the 1% of top guilds, nor are we stacking ranged. This is why I’m asking if you’ve been doing much raiding, because your perspective is all sorts of wrong.

No, because if it’s taking an extraordinarily long time, your healers are going to be spending more mana, and the argument in favor of mitigation gains validity.

If you’re killing the boss in under three minutes, and your Phase 2 is literally seconds long, it doesn’t matter if you have 2% dodge or not.

I asked if you had much raiding experience in Classic, not if you did UBRS. UBRS is not a raid.

No, I’m not impressed that you tank for your UBRS group each night. Do you think I should be?

Except, as I have shown, it isn’t.

No, you’re mistaking tanking with “stacking avoidance.” There’s more to tanking than minimizing your damage taken, especially in Classic where aggro is not guaranteed and threat matters.

Exactly. If you can stay alive, job #1 is done. You don’t need to be more alive. You either die while holding aggro or you don’t. If you don’t die while holding aggro, you gear for DPS/threat.

You should know, actually. First of all, the damage of Fire Breath is predictable. It’s not random; it doesn’t crit. You’re always going to take the same amount of damage from the breath, and it’s going to happen in regular intervals.

You should be topped off for each breath. That is the healers’ job. It isn’t hard to keep you topped off, and 2% dodge is not going to make it any less important to keep you at 100% HP for a breath.

If you mean “takes out a healer or two” as in they get knocked back, you should have your group spread out around Ragnaros so even if that happens, you’ll live.

Except they do have threat issues if you are playing with competent DPS and you are stacking mitigation. It’s not as easy as saying “I’m a bear, therefore I never have to worry about aggro.”

That’s… so dumb, it’s baffling.

The fight lasting longer doesn’t mean you generate more threat per second. Your total threat generated might be higher, but if it does not exceed the threat generated by the DPS, you will lose aggro.

The fight lasting longer doesn’t mean you’re a better tank. LOL

No, buddy, because I never argued that 2% haste was better for survivability. I said it was better for tanking because tanking is more about threat.

Uh, no…? Your reading comprehension needs work.

I agreed that dodge was better for mitigation. Mitigation is not the only part of tanking.

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Mitigation is a tanks #1 job… its literally why we are there… to mitigate damage. And you already admitted i was correct that 2% dodge is better than 2% haste at mitigation. The rest of this is your squirming and slithering around trying to prove that point wrong. Since you have admitted i was correct. I will just say thank you

I’m not forgetting that.

I’m telling you that, if you’re wearing nothing but mitigation gear, the buffs are not enough to help you maintain aggro.

I’m guessing this is not something you are used to because the DPS in your raids are doing so little damage.

Check the logs, bud. That’s what they hit before armor.

Yes.

The highest critical strike I’ve ever received was 1.9k from Ragnaros. At 5k HP (I easily have 7k in raids even without a Flask), I can take two hits like that back to back without healing and still be alive.

If I’m not receiving heals in the time Ragnaros attacks me three times, the healers are slacking.

The breaths are telegraphed and attacks do occur during the cast. I can easily be topped off by heals in the time a breath goes off.

As for cleave, it barely hits above 1k on average. I can definitely survive two crits in a row followed by a cleave… EVEN IN MY DPS GEAR.

Progression is when you are killing the bosses for the first time, bud. There isn’t very much progression raiding in Molten Core when you can kill every boss in the first attempt, and clear the raid in a little over an hour.

Has nothing to do with the epeen, buddy. I’m telling you

Stacked with Mages? There’s literally five mages, and there’s six rogues.

Here are the logs for that fight: https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/reports/RL4cTY7GFD1nZ3X2#fight=6

Well, 39, but close enough.

We were downing Ragnaros before submerge even with 30 people during our earlier clears.

I don’t care about most non-elitist turd guilds.

You said “you do too at this gear level.” You were objectively wrong, and I proved it to you.

I’m not expecting a different answer. It’s a rhetorical question at this point, noting how wrong you are about so many things.

Your perspective leads me to believe you haven’t done much raiding, even if you have.

And the answer is no.

I did not ask if you did UBRS. So no, I am not the one asking if you did UBRS.

Should I be impressed you do UBRS?

No, it isn’t. It’s a dungeon.

The tanks are NOT DYING, therefore threat is the focus.

You are totally ignoring the second part of your little mantra. “Stay alive and then make threat.”

“Stay alive” is complete. Now you make threat.

Duh, but even as you have admitted, there is more to tanking than staying alive.

There is diminishing returns in how useful avoidance and mitigation are. If you are not dying, and healers are not struggling to keep you alive, not running out of mana, etc, mitigating damage even further is unnecessary.

There are no deep breaths during our Onyxia kills. She dies before she breathes.

I didn’t say it doesn’t happen; I said you position yourself so that if it does happen, you still have a healer on you.

Except him being dead doesn’t prove what you were saying at all.

You were talking about the tank dying, and 2% dodge being better because of things like that.

How is a DPS dying at all relevant to that?

Again, I don’t think you’ve played with decent DPS before. Given a string of unlucky parries/dodges/misses, and a series of lucky crits during cooldowns, a DPS can easily pull aggro even in full DPS gear, let alone when you are wearing full mitigation gear.

I was literally quoting you saying it.

The less heals you need, the longer healers can heal you. The longer you live, the more threat you can make.

Being easier to heal is pointless if you are not dying and the healers are not running out of mana.

The fights do not last long enough for that to ever matter. Healers are not going OOM.

Stop trolling. I’m telling you repeatedly that haste is better for tanking, and dodge is better for avoidance. The two are NOT the same.

Right… and you have to continue holding aggro so you can be the one mitigated damage. Once you are capable of sufficiently mitigating damage, you focus on DPS and threat.

Remember? You said it:

Yes… and mitigation is not the only part of tanking.

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Nope. Tanks are there to keep aggro on mobs. And to keep aggro on mobs, you need to do two things:

  • Stay alive
  • Pump as much threat as possible

If you’re having 0 issues with incoming damage (as you should, if your healers aren’t braindead), then your next focus should obviously be to optimize your threat output.

This might be hard to understand if you’re in a guild that’s struggling with Molten Core, though.

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Lmaoooo who is this kid???

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For rogues ill take 8 ap, .25ish crit, and .50ish dodge. I have slice n dice, juju flurry, adrenaline rush, and blade flurry to increase my attack speed.

Which kid? That hunter above you is in a top 10 guild. I’ve been watching their vids nonstop and n order to improve my own raid.

Vanilla haste is not retail haste.

2% attack speed is 2% more swings during a fight on AUTO hits.

8 agi/str affects autos and specials

So if you hit 100 times, you’ll do 102 hits. Those 2 hits need to be worth the 8 stat you lost on every special and auto you did and any fight with MOVEMENT reduces it to nil.

nobody wants 2% dodge tanking these days anyway………dodge = not generating rage luls. rage = threat.

It’s hard to really see much value in haste with fights being this short. Since 1% haste is basically for every 100 attacks you had before, now you have 101.

I know mathematically it’s there, but will you ever actually see it in practice? Not so sure. Especially since existing haste from MCP dramatically increase the value of AP.

I’d want to see actual parses done with both setups to be sure, but my gut tells me if I’m looking for threat, to lean on +8 STR, or if I want something doing double duty for threat and survivability, +8 agi.