The way people are complaining, I’m not sure that’s true. Gear must be selling like hotcakes for all these threads.
Odd that I’ve never seen one person try though. I must just be getting full groups of upstanding citizens magically every time!
Doesn’t stop the fact it’s story mode. They gave it determination buffs to literally make it nearly infallible. Story mode.
It’s hard to go in there with that mindset when you don’t know if you’re going to get anything to even sell, or if it’s even worth it to other people.
Ditto. Multiple alts through multiple clears. Not a single WTS going up. Nor have I seen anyone openly pester someone about “gear they don’t need”. I’ve seen a few people willingly give up gear though.
I agree, so why does the LFR need to drop gear at all? The point of it is the story and quest completion. That’s quite literally why you’re there, right? That’s expressly the reason for the difficulty existing, right?
So why do LFR players get really upset when you talk about the gear in their loot pinatas?
I’d be all for them removing it 
I’d still run LFR as I don’t usually have time for dedicated progression raids
Where has blizz said that?
I’ve seen this happen in 4 raids so far this tier.
Yes, I would. Don’t tell me what I’d support, goofy.
And I only have one account.
I don’t support players rolling need on items with the intent to turn around and sell them, but I also doubt many people are queuing for LFR to do only that. I’d suspect many of them are there for a specific something and figure that while they are there may as well try to turn a buck on one of the things they can roll on but wasn’t the reason they hit the queue button. Or they are there specifically to be a troll in which case the selling of items was merely the vehicle to do so this time.
Its not steeling if the system awards it to players on its own.
Again if you read my post, for Mythic would benefit the most from ML coming back, as far as Heroic if your team is nick picking over loot, tell them to quit freaking raid logging and run some keys and upgrade what they got instead of being lazy.
Actually I am 45yo and been playing this game since it came out. Also if you cant understand that the current loot system does NOTHING to prevent overgeared players from rolling need on item, then YOU likely dont even understand how to fry fish at all.
Then how come you dont if its not that hard. Comprehension skillz maybe?
Hm. 45 years old, eh? 
simpler fix, personal loot.
and then I see the same old voices of people wanting to desperately strip players they deem to be undeserving of even the meager-est of scraps. “LFR shouldnt even give gear” “LFR is storymode” “they rolled, the gear is theres to do with” “personal loot was the same as everyone rolling need anyways”. All incorrect is so many ways and the arrogance wafting off it like steam from hot water on fresh snow.
Nor is it stealing rolling need on an item and winning it. If you’re going to classify player A rolling need on an item as stealing because you think player B deserves the item more, the same logic would apply to personal loot giving player A the item in question because player B still deserves it more.
What on earth does this have to do with the raid loot system? Even if my entire raid team runs 200 keys in a week, there is a better chance of our group getting upgrades from raid under GL than PL.
It objectively does a better job at doing so than personal loot.
The issue isn’t that you dislike group loot, there are plenty of valid reasons to do so. The issue is that your premise is that personal loot would be better even though the holes you’re poking at group loot are just as bad if not worse under personal loot.
The issue is that personal loot won’t fix the problem described in the post. Overgeared players would be able to turn around and sell items just as easily.
Now if you want to draw a distinction that it feels better because those items were given straight to those players rather than them showing intent to roll, that’s fine. But personal loot contains none of the protections offered from group loot against players receiving items they already have at the same or higher item level; there would likely be more players looking to sell loot they get under personal loot than group loot. So while it may feel better to some, it will objectively be a worse problem under personal loot.
So, you actually don’t know how the system works. That explains it all.
Specifically, if you don’t need the gear, DON’T ROLL NEED ON THE GEAR.
Need has an actual meaning – that gear will make your character stronger, which has always been the primary purpose of gear in WoW – and that is why it was given priority over other types of rolls in the first place. If people aren’t going to roll honestly then they should just remove different tiers of rolls and have Roll or Pass.
Thank you. I appreciate your reply, and yes… I know I am quickly loosing interest in this game.
Once a 'mafia or ’ mindset has taken over even lower levels of the game and figured out how to ‘exploit’ system mechanics of more and more of the game, players who like the boundaries of a generally fair game and think about the well being of players around them… like me, will just stop playing and I KNOW have.
I will also be one of those soon.
Just kenny still defending poopoo-head behavior. Nothing new here.
Heh 
one might almost deduce that he too engages in this behavior and wishes to re-afirm his maladjusted beliefs on a forums full of other people who enjoy taking loot to vendor over helping a follow azerothian.
Besides, whats hours of someone elses time vrs that sweet 50 gold the vendors gonna make rain. Or those sweet boots you’ll transmog for 30 minutes then never re-equip.
Selfishness all the way down.
According to…yourself. Who defined exploiting in the sentence following the claim it isn’t exploiting. I think what you mean is “it’s not against the rules” Which is also kenny’s argument. Which is just an argument void of any attempt at understanding why others find it frustrating. Which intern just leads me to believe everyone always popping up defending it is just those who engage in it. How about instead of making a quick 5k that dude just used the ‘greed’ or ‘transmog’ option BLIZZ has had in the game since like day one (greed that is) FOR A REASON. WHY ARE THE BUTTONS THERE IF THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE? WHY DO GUILDS NOT FREEROLL ALL GEAR IF TRANSMOG/VENDOR is EQUAL TO NEEDING GEAR FOR PROGRESSION. All of these are questions yall will never answer honestly. You’ll vaguely say not everyone plays the game for the same reason or say guilds have different goals. But everyone recognizes the intention of an MMO has almost always been gear progression. With side systems like transmog being a SIDE system, recognized by blizzard as such, you know with the whole button thing.
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5k gold for gear that is a certain upgrade? That’s a bargain if anything.
It’s a ‘racket’ of exploitation. Live in that world… it will GET WORSE AND WORSE AND WORSE… amazing all the BS semantics people come up with to make ‘exploitation’ of other players OK…because that is what you are taught. What are your limits? When will you think it’s corrupt? Ever?
I would say all of you who push and defend this ‘take’ part in the exploitation because you get lot’s of gold… for all I know you are those massive companies just there to make gold and ‘exploit’ the players 24/7. This is how I see this. No thanks.
Where is that meaning defined though? For the majority of time need rolls existed in WoW, gear had no purpose except when worn or sold and bound gear could not be traded at all. There were no use cases for the gear you acquired except to use or flip for in-game money. There are two more use cases for gear in Dragonflight with the return of need rolls and conveniently no clarification from Blizzard.
Personally, I do agree with you that need should still only refer to items the player would wear while trying to maximize their performance. But with the transmog button being functionally useless and trading opening up a whole other can of worms, I can understand how other players might reasonably assign a different definition of need. Blizzard is the only entity that carries any authority here, and the only clarification they’ve given us is in the form of roll restrictions via the system itself. Any attempt for players to try to apply supplemental rules in a full PUG setting like LFR would require one group of players dictating how another group of players should behave despite not holding any position of authority to do so.
That’s why even though I personally disagree with it, I will defend players who want to define need to incorporate transmog rolls and trading. I would love for Blizzard to issue guidance on the subject to put these topics to rest (or at least give them no leg to stand on). But until then, I don’t want other players to be able to tell me how I should engage with the game, so I don’t feel I (or anyone else) should have that right to do so with others.
Understanding why others find something frustrating is not required to make a claim regarding whether something is an exploit. Heck, the first definition of exploit doesn’t even carry a negative connotation, people just oftentimes only use the term in situations that are negative.
The reality is that Blizzard hasn’t provided clarity on whether players are allowed to sell items they win with need rolls, but the system does allow it. In fact, I could make the case that Blizzard’s enablement of cross-realm gold trading in LFR is an endorsement that it’s okay to sell loot you get in LFR to other members of that LFR group; Blizzard could have easily disabled gold trading inside of LFR while enabling it elsewhere.
And nothing I’ve said in these two paragraphs provides any insight into whether I think players should do it or how I think players put in the situation of having players try to sell LFR gear back to them feel. I can fully disagree with the practice and full recognize how frustrating it must be for the second place roller on an item that would be a big upgrade to be told they can have it if they pay up to the person who needed with no intention to ever use it themselves while still disagreeing with the assessment that player did anything against the rules.
This is such a bad faith comparison. In a guild (or any consistent raid group), it’s likely you will get items for transmog over the course of the season. By week 6, you will have a decent shot at getting that transmog item.
With LFR, there is a revolving door of players even throughout the season. There’s no guarantee you’ll have better odds to win a transmog roll in week 6 than you had in week 1, which is close to 0%. The only way you can expect to get a transmog item in any given LFR is to roll need on the item, which simply isn’t the case in a consistent group.
You do not speak for everyone.
But even setting that aside, your arguments intentionally ignore what at least I’ve been saying in this subject. You want to paint anyone who disagrees with you that need should only represent items being worn as upgrades as being ignorant on the systems at play and/or the feelings of other players on the subject. You even go so far as to accuse anyone who disagrees as being people who engage in such behaviors.
You do not get to decide what need means for everyone, regardless how it was used in the past and/or in other games. The definition of WoW that was widely accepted back near the beginning of the game’s history did not have to factor in transmog or trading, both of which change the equation in pretty significant ways. Yes, there is a transmog button which I personally think should be changed to be more useful, but today it’s functionally equivalent to a pass in most LFR groups.
No player has the right to tell another player they don’t have a need for transmog, and since the transmog button is essentially the same as pass, many will roll for transmog. No player has the right to tell another player they don’t have a need to improve the performance of their friends/guild mates since that will help them achieve their own goals over the long term, so many will roll for other players.
You’re welcome to request Blizzard make changes or even just issue clarity on the subject, but you do not get to unilaterally decide your definition is correct while everyone else is wrong.
And just so we’re clear, my participation in this thread and firm rebuttal to your points should not be taken to mean that I am engaging in these activities. I personally do agree with your assessment for when need should be used and I behave consistent with such values. But I will still defend people who value different things and want to use a perfectly viable alternate definition of need from players trying to dictate their own values onto others.
And you would simply be wrong. There are more uses for loot today than there were when “need” referred to the narrow scope you want to define it as in WoW. I simply do not believe one group of players has the right to tell another group of players how to engage with the game, only Blizzard has that authority. The system allows people to roll need on things that may not be an upgrade and a separate system allows them to turn around and sell that item to the group. I do not have to engage in such practices or even condone them to stand behind my point that you shouldn’t be able to tell someone else they cannot do so.
Throw around the term exploitation all you want, these players were engaging with two systems in the way they were designed and consistent with the terms of the game. You can be unhappy at the result of their combination, and for the record I am as well. But just because I disagree with their actions doesn’t mean I should have the authority to tell them they’re wrong for doing so.
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You’re giving entirely too much faith to blizzard and their ability for foresight. Ill give you a chance that its true it was intentional for items to be sold. But Ill give it an extremely low chance given all the evidence that they wanted to seperate need/greed/transmog etc.
You are correct, morality is seperate, but its not unrelated. Theres a reason why so many more of these posts are appearing than the occasional one back in personal loot days. Theres a reason the rolling feels worse. And its worthy in the discussion. Because at the end of the day we all want a better game… thats why were all here venting our opinions on the forums to the void. So it is relevant, although seperate indeed…
Its not bad faith. You’re misusing that term. It was only an example used as evidence for the fact that MMO’s in general are indeed primarily about loot. Always have been always will be. I dont care if you wanna say “well some people wanna just collect pets”. Thats fine, they can collect pets, but if collecting pets somehow turns into this toxic loot stealing loot selling system that interacts with primary gameplay then id also say that it should be fixed. Loot as progression is quite literally more valuable in every single game metric. You can save 40 hours getting a raid piece vrs farming a specific mythic dungeon, and instead people should be able to roll to sell/transmog? You guys sound so rediculous and it never makes sense to me. We dont make games around the 1 percent of pet collectors or 1 percent of mythic raiders, games are made primarily with the average player in mind, and the average player plays the MMO the way MMO’s have always been played, for loot. You’re wrong if you think otherwise.
No one decides. But as I just said, large games like this aim to please an many as possible. There are general game designs that are objectively true, like gearing, factual parts of MMO history and context. You want to just drop that all away to bolster your argument but you have no good reason to ignore the history of MMO’s. Again getting gear as an upgrade is more valuable in almost every metric outside fringe cases. No I cant tell people how to play, nor should I, but I also dont think we should cater to the 5 percent of toxic wow players who value transmog over someone elses time. We could dive deeper into it but in almost EVERY WAY its less valuable for these people needing and selling or needing for xmog. It makes no sense to force the player base to cater to toxicity. Then come to the forums and have people not acknowledge anything about why it feels bad, then gaslight on why it should be okay.
We could run down the value tree. What does a transmog player recieve vrs what does a gear needing person recieve in so far as value? Firstly we’d need to agree on a definition of value. Eventually wed have to agree that the only way to determine value is by a market type indentification, or in otherwords, what does the average person think of the value.
First of all lets talk about time. A transmog player can get transmog at any point and its ‘value’ doesn’t change. Once you have it, its had forever. A transmog player will likely only use the transmog for a month max. I’ve never known a transmog player to only use one transmog set, its almost antithetical. A transmog player gains no advantage in any of the game metrics such as item level, dps/hps, potential for invites to groups etc. A gearing player gains value in all these areas. They gain saved time from farming gear, they gain saved time for quicker runs/more hps/dps. They gain time from the potential groups they could join with higher ILV. They gain like 10 different forms of time sensitive benefits. Whereas transmogers gain none of these.
Again we could delve into a value argument where you could say something like “well what if someone values transmog more than the entire human species, who are you to say they’re wrong”. And I can’t. Because although value is subjective in so far as feelings. value isn’t subjective insofar as time metrics are concerned. Nor can value escape the previous argument that MMO’s have always been about gear. Almost everyone would agree in a guild scenario upgrades>transmog. And I only say guild scenario because people lose their minds and get confused as soon as a pug is mentioned, cause apparently everything should be ok in pugs. And the only reason for that is selfishness. You want something that is way less value to you than another person, but because you dont know this random person you weigh that in your head, and in your head (not in reality) you find your own satisfaction no matter how small more valueable (in your head) than giving it to someone who we could objectively claim it benefits in more facets.
That’s fine, my point of bringing it up wasn’t to suggest that was Blizzard’s intent. I was merely highlighting there exists just as much evidence Blizzard supports selling items in LFR (by the existence of them recently adding that capability) than Blizzard doesn’t consider transmog to be a valid need roll use case in LFR (they give a button that will rarely ever award a transmog in LFR). Players simply want to pick and choose the evidence that supports their way of thinking while pretending evidence that suggests something else doesn’t exist.
Stealing? In order for someone rolling need against you for an item to be stealing would require you to be entitled to that item, which you simply are not. You can disagree with their reasons for rolling and be upset that they were allowed to do so, but absolutely no definition of stealing would apply to that situation.
Your loot progression will never be more valuable to me in a situation where I’ll likely never play with you again than any use I could have for the item. Now I personally don’t roll need on items I won’t use because I feel it’s a crummy thing to do on a human level. But don’t mistake that decision as me somehow caring about your gearing the slightest; I just don’t have a use for it myself and if it literally was left on the boss that would be fine with me.
If that were the case then transmog wouldn’t exist in the game.
So the time the person after the transmog spent on the boss is less valuable than the person who is after the item as an upgrade? You claim that you don’t think you should get to tell someone how to engage with the game in one breath but then act like the person looking for an upgrade’s time is not e valuable than the person who wants an appearance.
All while using made up statistics you can’t possibly have.
Again, it is not more valuable for me to pass loot to you in a PUG.
But even setting that aside, I actually do think there should be changes to separate out transmog from need and cross realm gold trading shouldn’t exist in a raid context. I don’t disagree with the end state you think the game should have. I do think need roll should be just for upgrades. I just reject the notion that another player who holds no more authority on the subject than me should get to dictate to me that’s how all players should act. Until Blizzard makes the transmog button useful and changes or issues guidance on selling loot, players being able to do with loot they win whatever they want is just the reality we live.
It’s a lot simpler than you make it. The value an item has for me that I don’t get and that doesn’t go to a character I will play with again is 0. You can try to make some grandiose statement how I should think about the entire player base and the possible butterfly effect down the road, but none of that is going to realistically alter my gameplay experience. Any item that I don’t win while in a raid of characters I won’t play with again may as well not exist. And any attempt to try to paint a larger picture to try to make me see how it does benefit me for you to get the item is going to eventually reach a point where you want to define your goals as being more important than mine. And quite frankly you do not have the right to do so.
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