It’s interesting that you say such and I would very much like to know how exactly LFR provides a framework to learn raid mechanics.
I absolutely agree that you can learn raid mechanics from LFR, however I believe that players need to make a conscious decision to do so. The raid doesn’t teach us the value of the mechanics, or why we should do them.
All of the mechanics in LFR are trivial, most damage being received is low enough to the point that unless you are attentive you would not even realise that you were taking damage in the first place.
Nothing makes you notice what is happening to your player or makes you feel threatened.
The only encounter I can think about with meaningful mechanics is G’huun LFR who has it’s unique mechanic that has to be dealt with in a unique manner.
The issue generally being with this however is that at no stage does the general player really feel the need to do this mechanic.
On most occasions you will have a handful of players who do all the orbs on both sides whilst the rest of the group remains oblivious to the encounter design.
I think this is the issue with current LFR design personally, so yes, while I agree it is totally possible to learn and practise mechanics in LFR, I do not feel that the design encourages it, or makes it a priority.
Instead its a players own desire to understand the encounters and better themselves that allows for learning in these contexts.
However, as I said, I am open to understanding why you believe that LFR is a good medium to teach players mechanics and how to become better at the game as it is entirely possible that as a player who developed during BC/WotLK there might be something that I am overlooking from a new players perspective.
But why should a player require an addon to learn the game? And if they are simply moving when being told to are they actually learning?
At what stage in the game does the content advise you (as anew player) to “download an addon” for you to even know that GTFO exists.
Do you start to understand the problem as to how the game fails to teach players?
If it is implicit that they should be using an exterior tool to interact with the game then the game needs to direct you as such (or have such systems built in), if the design is that you aren’t meant to be using such tools then the game needs to properly teach you why such mechanics are important.
Silly question.
its common for people who are new to something to use a tool to help.
You do all your math by hand…or do you use a calculator?
Using tools that help you do your job easier and better is just how the world works
Personally I don’t think that example is relative at all. We are talking at a base level, in comparison to maths we are talking addition and subtraction, the first steps into mathematics.
Do we learn with a calculator for those?
Of course not, we are first taught to do the mathematics by hand before being introduced (through the framework of the maths tutor) to the calculator when we move onto more complex maths where the emphasis on the calculations is less important than the process used, or where complex interactions are involved.
And since when has the purpose of a video game been learning? If you’re going to learn something, then learn something useful. Six months from now a new raid will drop, and all the information you “learned” for the current raid will become completely worthless. Most people play games to be entertained, not to learn. World of Warcraft is not a teaching tool. It’s a game.
But mathematics exists on a fundamental level, and it is unchanging. 1+1 will always be 2. No one is going to nerf it and say 1+1=1.5 from now on because 2 was just too OP. Most Dungeon and Raid mechanics are arbitrary, and there is no rhyme or reason as to how or why they exist.
Sometimes you have to stand in the menacing circles that suddenly appeared on the ground, and other times you have to avoid them like the plague. Sometimes you have to stack with everyone else in the raid, and others you have to maintain a 5-yard spread. Sometimes you need to tunnel on the boss, and other times you exclusively punch the adds. Sometimes you want to dispel the raid debuffs, and other times you need to leave them on for a specified amount of time.
The fact that all this stuff is awkwardly communicated in an Adventure Guide rather than explicitly stated over the natural course of the fight is a glaring design flaw that is addressed by addons like Deadly Boss Mods and GTFO.
To put it another way, you need to understand why 1+1=2 in order to understand the calculator’s results. There is nothing to understand with raid mechanics. You just stack in the white circles on this boss just because. On the next boss, you’ll want to avoid the white circles for reasons. You’re not short-changing yourself by using tools to compensate for the game’s deficiencies. In fact, you’re doing your fellow raid members a big favor.
Again…silly.
so you dont think having a TOOL to make ANY job EASIER and more productive is the better route?
As i said…you doing all your math by hand or using a calculator?
Since I dont know how toprogram a GAME Im not going to need any tools to write the game code. But I imagine that the guys who make the game do. Just as the players who play the game do.
This is a GAME. Of course most of us are going to use TOOLS that are available to make the most of our time and efforts in a game.
The sub numbers from DS release throughout now is super inconsistent(there are cata sub numbers,I’m at work so I’m speed typing,I’m sure you can google from vabilla to mop) and never could reach back it’s peak or sustain longterm subs.
LFR was the final split the breaking away from what wow was for most. I think that is why it is always remembered as the end.
It is the day when catch up mechanics because the content. It is when tiers died. While wrath wounded that system lfr was the final nail in the coffin. I can’t imagine many people happy with lfr would be happy with a game without and vice versa.
Its inclusion means the destruction of the playstyle and camps of players that came before it with the exception of pvp and high end raiders.
We aren’t referring to learning life skills, we are talking about learning the game and how to play it. And yes, that is exactly what games are like, why do you think games generally have a difficulty curve that require you to improve and learn the mechanics to succeed.
If a game is able to be completed in the same degree of difficulty as the tutorial then chances are it is a difficult game.
Personally I find that the game does a reasonable job of communicating encounter mechanics to the player, even if, like you mentioned some require you to read the dungeon journal (when damage states “spread across players hit” it generally means stack)
I agree that it is not the same as a calculator, which was kind of my point earlier when someone brought that up as a comparison.
I still believe that mechanics do (outside of LFR, which is why LFR is an issue) provide reasonable feedback on what you are meant to do without requiring an addon.
Garm for example gained a visible buff when players didn’t soak, it is easy to associate the two together.
Add spawns on Vectis from missing the AoE is a clearly visual representation that a mistake was made.
Also just to clarify your last statement. I’m not saying you are short changing yourself by using addons at all. If you go back to the original statement I said “LFR doesn’t provide good indication on the importance of mechanics” and someone responded “That is what GTFO is for”.
I was merely stating that the game shouldn’t require you to use an external source (of which new players would have no knowledge of) to deal with something that should be represented in game.
I feel that higher difficulties show it well by having mechanics be more meaningful causing large chunks of damage etc
However LFR does not due to the fact you can unfailingly stand in harmful AoE with little risk of dying.
No one said it wasn’t the better route to use tools.
I said “LFR doesn’t teach you the importance of mechanics since they aren’t threatening they are obscure” and you simply responded “that is what GTFO is for”.
I’m not arguing that GTFO is bad, I never was. I was simply stating that the game should not require you to use an external source (which isn’t referenced in game, nor known to new players without research) to perform the function the game should already do.
Higher difficulties already do a decent enough job by making the mechanics threatening enough that you have to deal with them to succeed. LFR doesn’t do that.
Seems akin to trying to argue what came first the chicken or the egg. Did lfr bring about loot hungry players who only played for items or did those players always exist but just lacked a outlet due to lack of skill either within the game or socially to join a guild.
It is honestly hard to say. All we can see are the effects.
![:frowning:](https://d38bqls1q93fod.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/frowning.png?v=6" ":frowning:")