Lets talk about the state of DK in Dragonflight

Classes Death Knight
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Power Infusion (PI) and the fact that for quite a long period of time in game one of the best targets that benefit the most are UH DK’s is actually highlighting a much larger issue overall. Any UH DK who doesn’t have access to PI is at a significant DPS disadvantage not only to a UH DK that does but also to majority of the other Class DPS Specs. The simple fact that a 25% boost to Haste every 2 min for 20 seconds is the only means that currently provides a UH DK to be highly competitive vs various other classes who don’t require any external assistance to achieve similar numbers is highlighting the issue with UH DK’s DPS throughput and their much higher reliance than other classes on needing higher haste values throughout the duration of an encounter to remain relevant in terms of DPS.

When you consider the fact that Unholy has had access to Unholy Assault or it’s previous iterations Unholy Fever etc. for a long time and that ability has been a personal buff that provided a boost to the DK’s haste for around 20 seconds. Currently Unholy Assault is providing the UH DK with 20% Haste for 20 seconds on a 1.5 minute cooldown.
So Unholy Assault from the UH DK with the addition of PI from a Priest is giving the UH DK a haste buff of 45% for approximately 20 seconds give or take a few seconds every two minutes.
It’s the combination of Unholy Assault and PI when combined together as either of them when used individually without the other results in roughly the same results in each case; that being roughly the same as a UH DK who doesn’t receive PI during an encounter.

What needs to be done to resolve the problem in terms of UH DK’s and their reliance on PI from priests to post competitive DPS results vs other classes?

I guess one option would be to somehow make the UH DK less reliant on the need for an external Haste Buff like PI to combine with their own Unholy Assault during encounters. One possible option would be to increase the Haste provided by Unholy Assault and then tweak it. For example you could increase the value from 20% to 40% for 20 seconds if left on a 1.5min cooldown, alternatively you could make it a higher value of haste like 50% to 60% on a longer cooldown such as 2.5min to 3min with a slightly higher duration to compensate the reduced casts available per encounter; such as 30 to 40 seconds for example.
Obviously one key change that would be needed would be to make PI and Unholy Assault unable to stack. Potentially in addition the DK gets a debuff from Unholy Assault that prevents PI from working on the UH DK that can only be removed when Unholy Assault is activated again. This prevents the potential abuse of PI in between Unholy Assault cooldowns by an UH DK. Obviously a UH DK that doesn’t have Unholy Assault Talent choice selected could make use of PI.
As an alternative to the above they could consider increasing UH DK Haste baseline making it so that an UH DK has maybe something like 20% haste baseline. If they did this option you wouldn’t need to change Unholy Assault that much maybe increase it by 5% to 10% at most but, still have the debuff to prevent PI being cast on the UH DK. This would also mean that an UH DK without Unholy Assault could leverage PI to essentially net the same results as they previously did with the combination of PI and Unholy Assault (20% baseline + 25% PI = 45% Haste increase for 20 seconds every 2 min)

In essence it’s very clear the an UH DK is too reliant on another classes single target buff to increase their haste values to a level which enables them to remain competitive with other DPS classes. Especially when you consider those those other DPS classes do not require any similar external assistance or buff apart from standard ones that all other dps receive during an encounter (Bloodlust for example).

In terms of an option for an UH DK group/raid buff that many have mentioned and asked to have returned to the DK’s toolkit which would make them more appealing to have, would be the idea of the DK Presences or Aura’s coming back just like a Paladin has their Aura’s. DK would have their own as well Unholy Presence/Aura, Blood Presence/Aura, Frost Presence/Aura and each does something that would be beneficial and could be used under various different circumstances.
For example:

  • Unholy Presence might provide a movement increase while in effect to all members of the group/raid as well as a slightly increased haste value buff such as 20% of the DK’s haste value. So this would be higher when the DK has their haste buffed temporarily to something like 10 - 15% for all members in those windows but likely something around 2 - 5% at all other times.

  • Blood might something like reduce damage taken from all magical sources by a given percentage and when magical damage is taken it converts the reduced damage values to hitpoint absorb shields that can also absorb physical damage as well as magical damage for a short period of time

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113

My immediate though after reading this is just make Unholy Assault a DK version of Power Infusion and not let the buffs stack with each other. Then adjust other abilities to compensate.

Really just want more group utility with my DK in general, so maybe switch it with Soul Reaper from the class tree so all three specs have access to it.

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Frost should be the unholy one but for crit instead of haste

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People hate Power infusion, let’s not make another one, especially now that an entire spec based on it being created.

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That’s not a bad idea… However, instead of increasing Movement speed as if you think about it that’s sort of linked with Haste increase maybe make it reduce the effectiveness of knockback abilities as you’re freezing you allies to the ground. So while you would still get knocked back it is reduced by a certain amount?
Alternatively due to the freezing effects of the Aura it reduces the time allies can be stunned or CC’s by a certain amount?

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The beginning of Dragonflight DKs decline in PvP.

Nope, I said this before. This is one of the reasons Frost was MIA after Legion, in spite of it being S-tier in PvE in BFA. It was satisfying to hear Rime proc and watch it hit massive add groups but it was otherwise boring and monotonous, and tickled in PvP. I’ll never forget hitting a priest with a Killing Machine proc with every cooldown and gear buff active, and only dealing 3% of their health with an 11k total hit while they laughed in my face.

What they need to do is expand the mechanics with more primary abilities so the spec isn’t so boring, and the devs have more room to make modifications.

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Totally agree with you to be honest. It’s one of the main reasons I was highlighting the need to make a change to the UH DK so they are no longer so reliant on PI.
Then of course this does potentially open the door for PI to be changed to do something else that is universally doing something that helps or assists all classes but doesn’t change things so much that it is seen as required as much as it is now.

1 Like
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I think we just a new and fresh approach to the class.

There are so many ideas already, i’ll add a few:

  • Runeforging could use a revamp or at least more interaction within talents, it’s supposed to be a crucial part of the fantasy. If it doesn’t totally make sense to be on frost or unholy trees then make it something for blood.
  • The anima power Undertaker’s Crown with Lich Robes that made you irradiate Death Coils was fun;
  • Bone Harvester could be fun for keys;
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Please do not turn DK’s rotation into button bloated slop like so many other class’s, thank you.

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Thats already Unholy though lol

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Possibly unpopular opinion, but bringing in more basal passives with unique interactions is more my style, as I’ve always appreciated Machine Gun FDK for that unga bunga feeling.

Unholy is a different story as there aren’t many melee classes that have that much ramp up required for basic success except maybe Assassin Rogue. Unholy to me just needs a bit of a smoothing out of its process, as right now it feels like probably the worst “pet” spec for gameplay (Though the new rotation incoming for Demo locks looks like a GREAT competitor just on the opposite end of the button spectrum.)

Quite frankly as well I want to see more with runeforging, I appreciate them being “better” enchantments and I don’t mind that remaining the core idea, I just want more done with it. Even trying something as basic as “double runeforging” might be worth a shot at this point because frankly DKs are just not in a good spot at all and random numbers changing will bandaid it at best until next expansion.

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Hopefully this doesn’t become too long winded, but I think a large attributing factor to DK’s population decline also is in large part due to how they play in m+. With m+ having a larger impact on the game as a whole compared to past expansions it really highlights DK’s flaws. I really want to emphasize, dk’s performance in m+ is not an issue, our dmg is quite high actually. It’s a rare occurrence when I’m not top damage, but both specs feel terrible to play for different reasons.

Dk’s lack of utility inside m+ is shockingly back comparatively to other classes. I know this has been touched on a lot, but with the addition of incorp and afflicted we are the worst class to bring during these weeks. There are a shockingly high amount of mobs that are immune to DG. DG does have good value, but it does not outweigh the value that other melee are bringing, especially during incorp and afflicted weeks, Unholy DK having even less. There is no incentive to bring a DK over a ret paladin now, especially giving paladins brez.

Unholy in m+ is in a really rough place gameplay wise. In any given pack, we are locked into ~7 gc’ds for every single ad pack before we get into our core aoe rotation. On fortified weeks this is usually ok where the mobs live at least 30 seconds, but anytime under that and we are severely gimped, creating a cascading effect of not having CD’s available. This becomes significantly worse in tyrannical. Further, dungeons that have primarily a 3-4 target pull count unholy really falls off. To add onto all of this, defile covering the ground of swirls is absurd. Even experienced players can die to a one shot swirl in defile and anytime this happens it feels bad and is so absurd its even part of the game.

Frost runs into some similar problems as unholy, outside of CD windows you are lower dmg than tanks, and not by a small amount. All of frost damage is baked into pillar of frost and dnd oblit cleaves. If there is any movement whatsoever during this window, your dmg is gone. There are so many frontals, ground swirls, and forced movement in an aoe pull that its extremely common you cant stay inside your dnd during a pillar window. Having a pug tank makes this problem even worse when you roll into your pillar/dnd windows and the tank starts pulling another mob pack that you weren’t expecting and now you’re moving out of your dnd during pillar window. A lot of classes this really isn’t and issue for but for frost dk is murders any damage you might’ve had, and again, feels bad.

It blows my mind that blizzard can rework mage Rune of Power and specifically target how its unreasonable to force someone to play in place in the current state of the game yet not address DK’s at all with DnD and defile. Blizzard saying, “In Raid, Mythic+, and PvP, having a player commit to a small space for 12 seconds is a large ask and one that just doesn’t feel fun to play around”. Please fix this for DK, its even worse than mage RoP.

Regardless of damage, if the class or spec feels bad to play, people wont play it. I think Taez’s post highlights this extremely well, but it can also be applied to m+ where a lot of casual people play in. If you cant get invited to groups, you play a class that does. In the current state of the game, there are very little to no reasons at all to bring a dk. Making this even worse is that other classes are getting reworked and bringing more utility than ever before.

9 Likes
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Absolutely agree with this post. Have been maining DK since Wrath with only small break for a few classes and those were primarily because I was sick and tired of playing breath spec for 5-7 years straight. It was fun an fresh when it first came out and added a whole new playstyle but hasn’t changes since then. I can only bear to play it now because I play 2H obliterate spec since its actually somewhat viable these days (particularly in M+)

Another problem I have seen with DK vs other classes as of late is mobility. Once upon a time it felt like we were able to hustle around when we had both Wraith Walk and Death’s Advance (And the NF thing in Shadowlands, I miss that) but now its difficult to talent into Wrath Walk and DA feels like its always on cd so we are just at base run speed. Even if my feely-crafting about run speed is lame I find it makes the class have a sense of being ‘stuck in the mud’ compared to other classes, particularly melee. even back in the day being able to swap to unholy presence helped some of the running, but I digress.

Overall hard agree that DK needs a refresh if its going to stay afloat and be desirable to play.

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The state of dk? I think the devs forgot about the class since no ones playing it now

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This week my dk has won 1 round of 25 played.
1.

Not even always the kill target. All of a sudden everyone seems to have permanent root with no DR against me. And if I do manage to get on the target…my “burst” is about as effective as a wet fart, while everyone else’s passive non-burst dps is 2-3x higher.

DK main since DK’s were released, and this is the worst its even been.

Frost DK is PVE only now.
For PVP it’s garbage tier.

The devs can get bent.

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Want to revive this thread a bit, and present a few more examples of why unholy should be included in a rework, even if people ARE playing it, unlike frost.

So, lets first look at some official blizzard descriptions of what unholy is meant to do.

First off, the specilization selection screen
Imgur

“A master of death and decay, spreading infection and controlling undead minions to do their bidding.”

a MASSIVE portion of unholy’s lore is related to being a plaguebringer. A being that, if you see coming, will spread diseases throughout, causing death and destruction with those diseases.

Yet, in the game itself, diseases play an insanely small role in our overall dps. To give an example of this, lets use some simulations to see what the dps difference is if we just, never apply our plague to our target.

So, to start, lets present a baseline. Here is what things look like playing as intended, applying diseases, popping wounds.

Now, lets compare it to a simulation that just, never presses outbreak.

Can see in the breakdown presented in the sims, there is no Virulent Plague damage present anymore, and the sim lost… ~1200dps. thats, well… less than a 1% damage loss by ignoring one of unholys main themes, being the plaguebringer, using diseases to rot your enemies away.

Some may argue that Wounds are meant to fill that disease role though, while i disagree, lets explore what the DPS loss would be if we ignored festering wounds, outside of making sure we have 4 wounds to properly use Apocalypse.

Same talent build as before, same gear, only difference here being it now only presses festering strike before apocalypse.

Total dps loss? 2700dps. Almost exactly a 2% dps loss by entirely ignoring a core mechanic in the default build. Through some past experimentation, ive been able to get the dps loss to ~0.7% for never pressing festering strike, with some build changes and gear changes to push more damage into clawing shadows/death coil. But, i believe it would be disingenuous to push that value when its not a build people actually run.

So, the spec thats meant to be a plaguebringer, master of disease and bringer of pestilence to all, has very, very little incentive to actually utilize these abilities.

Too much of our damage has been taken out of Virulent Plague, and our other diseases. We are a master of disease, and have a weaker disease than Frost DK.

Our main disease, doesn’t even have any core interactions anymore, with the removal of Virulent Eruption on tick. Its an absolute shell of its former self.

Don’t believe me? well, lets compare.

Utilizing the Best in Slot simulations for the current tier.

Virulent Plague:
Average Tick Damage - 5662 damage
Extra Effect - Virulent Eruption if enemies die with VP applied to them. 0 DPS impact in single target.

Frost Fever:
Average Tick Damage - 17237 damage
Extra Effect - 5 Runic Power on tick (as long as memory serves, this is a 30% chance against a single target, 40% chance with Invigorating Freeze if the tick crits). Ignoring invigorating freeze, would be an average of 0.5 runic power per second. A small but quantifiable DPS increase.

So, Frost DK’s DoT is more than 3x as strong as unholys, and has a substantially more impactful extra effect.

So, wheres unholys plagebringer aspect? That theme seems to be almost entirely ignored these days. You could argue that Epidemic in AoE is a substantial increase, which is linked to Virulent Plague, but, thats an arbitrary limitation. Theres no reason why it couldnt work without Virulent Plague applied to the target. If thats a pseudo justification for our DoT being so weak, why not remove that limitation and let our DoT be stronger? Doesnt make much sense to me for it to be such an arbitrary limitation anyways.

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I feel like unholy could draw a lot from the d4 necromancer. Make apoc baseline, 4 minions and a mage up all the time. Make unholy blight not only apply virulent plague but also ramp/increase disease damage during that window. Make army of the dead minions explode on death, spreading disease. Hell, make DT baseline and active all the time, reducing our cd bloat, and increasing our sustain dmg. We’ll still have more cd’s than other classes in unholy blight, army, garg, UA, and ERW.

There is so much you can do with this class, it seems so wild to me clawing shadow (shadow) and death coil are our core rotation when, exactly like you stated, we’re the masters of disease. Also, on that note, would it be crazy to give unholy a disease dispel? Isn’t that our thing? This would also help with afflicted. Adjacent to this, control undead should not replace our minion, it should add to it.

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They should just bring back icy touch/glyph of icy touch in some form to provide dispel utility. Maybe change lichborne to a shorter CD and have it convert diseases/poison on you to healing instead of providing x% leech.

I’d also note, taez’s post made me miss old school disease management back in wotlk. All the various prunings have destroyed how a lot of classes work over the years.

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Have they really played that big of a damage contributor? Even when diseases were really important they were only about 5.3-7% of your overall damage depending on the spec (in Wrath) but you lost way more damage if you didnt have them on due to talent / ability interactions.

I think thats the problem more than anything. Without the interactions they used to have they just became antiquated.

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Shift damage out of gargoyle and back into our core rotation.

In fact, remove gargoyle.

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