Let us accumulate evidence that layering had negative effects on player experience

WoW Classic WoW Classic General Discussion
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I want to accumulate the evidence that this layer system had certain negative effects. I do not want for this thread to contain rants and finger-pointing at Blizzard because there is a lot of that already. I also know that layers will go away in Phase 2, so there is no need to bring that up. I just want a single place for us to discuss and for Blizzard to see all the negative effects layers have had on player experience, so that:

  1. Blizzard can make better decisions in the future should they ever approach the problem that layers were meant to solve.
  2. Blizzard cannot say that players did not suffer from the side effects of layers.

Use bullet points or numbers if you have more than one negative effect to share. For each one, do one of the following:

  1. Add “Personal Experience” to the beginning of the point if you personally experienced this negative effect.
  2. Add “Secondhand Experience” to the beginning of the point if you know someone who personally experienced this negative effect.
  3. Add “Rumor” to the beginning of the point if you heard someone mention that this negative effect happened to someone else not them or in passing.
  4. If more than one of 1, 2, or 3 apply, then use a forward slash to separate e.g. Personal/Secondhand/Rumor.
  5. Add “Speculation” to the beginning of the point if you think this negative effect is happening, but you have no definitive proof.

I will start.

  1. Personal Experience: Gurubashi Arena is split into layers, so it’s not a true battle royale of everyone who comes to the arena, but multiple battle royales in each of the layers. In one layer, you might have a single combatant who is in that layer’s arena, and they loot the trinket. In another layer, you have an Alliance PvP guild partying to get the trinket. In yet another layer, a Horde PvP guild does the same.

  2. Rumor: Members of this forum have repeatedly made mention of people using layers to farm resources and items in manner that unbalances their realm’s economy.

  3. Speculation: The guild that got the world first completion of Molten Core were able to do so because they used layers to farm resources and items at a high rate as referenced in 2. If not for this, then I think they might not have been able to complete Molten Core as early into the WoW Classic launch as they did.

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Too much “Invite to new layer plz” for me to count. So fail.

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Too much threads of people crying about layering on the forums.

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We’ve already had plenty of arguments as to some of the problems layering provides.

The argument in favour of it isn’t that it’s a solution without flaws(You will never find a solution without flaws), but rather that it’s the best solution and that the pros outweigh the cons.

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I’d wager that removal of layering and having hundreds of people around every corner competing for mobs/quest items would have a far more negative impact. There is no way with the amount of people going through zones for it to be feasible to remove layering right now. It would be a nightmare.

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I’d wager it wouldn’t.

Just one server. One new server without layering and closed to any transfers. That’s all we’re asking for. Give it to us so we can stop our b!tching.

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None. Ive had None experiences. I Speculate that most people have had similar None experiences.

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Fair enough but there is no way you think a server like Herod would be able to function without layering. I can understand you want a server without layering. I’m not saying its perfect but for the large servers, it is absolutely necessary.

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It seems like they are addressing some problems with an increased layer transfer delay time, even for a one time transfer, not repeated transfers.

For example, I have two accounts, and while I play my main on my “main” account I have my banker on my “alt” account. I can log in on both, have both toons stand side by side, and then just trade things to the banker for that toon to post on the AH to sell and consolidate items. I can also trade things I mailed from my main to my alt from various towns out and about to avoid having to come back to a city. Doing direct trades saves on postage costs and the hour long delay to receive things via in game mail.

For the last two days, when my main invites my banker, it takes a full 30 seconds for the banker to actually transfer from their original layer to my main’s layer. The first time it happened, it caught me by surprise, so I didn’t time it. But the second time was the following day, and I timed it in case it happened again, and it did.

I don’t know if that increased delay is lessening the problems or not. I know Blizz said that repeated transfers between layers would result in increased transfer delays, but in my case, it was on subsequent days, so I don’t think my banker was experiencing the increased delay penalty.

/moo :cow:

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Agree, but I suggest organize outside of the Classic forums. Use discord. Then post daily on the Classic forums to gain more traction, more user support, and update the evidence. Keep on doing so.

I also suggest evidence that Blizzard is ignoring the issue due to massive streamer exploits. The reason being that streamers bring tens of millions of dollars worth of free advertising, and Blizzard doesn’t take action as it would require them to ban their free advertising.

For example, yesterday somebody posted video proof of Asmongold exploiting layers for personal gain and asked Blizzard to fix. The post was polite, factual, and straightforward. Blizzard’s response was to lock the post.

So yes, I agree, gather ALL evidence. Then create a massive post of findings. Contact gaming news outlets as well and stress that cheating was allowed due to massive free advertising benefits.

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  1. you had just as many people at the arena in your layer as you would have had without layering so no impact there.
  2. blizz (who actually have the data) have said this is not true and is not a problem.
  3. most of them were sub lvl 60, almost all of them used dungeon grinding to level which is unaffected by layering. And only a select few had to grind elementals of which there are plenty without layering to farm to honored, so even if they did use layering it saved them a few hours max…
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  1. This is absolutely false. I’ve seen two sets of people arrive to Gurubashi Arena in two different layers. The only reason I did this was because I was asked to switch layers by a 60 Horde Shaman leading a group who I know I’d have no chance against (I was like level 46 at the time). This was the first time I ever intentionally switched layers. In the other layer, there was a mix of 40+ Alliance and 50+ Alliance. If both groups wanted the trinket as badly as they did, then the number of people competing for the chest would have been the sum of both layered Gurubashi arenas.

  2. I called it out as a rumor because I don’t have the data, and I’ve only heard from people mentioning it here. If someone has their own data (e.g. screenshots) or personal experience that could lend weight to this argument, then I think they should share what they have here.

  3. One possible signal into how much time they might have saved from layers is to see the quantity and quality of consumables (potions and elixirs) the raid group used. If they used the flasks that require Purple Lotus or they farmed enough herbs for the next best elixirs and potions of their raid, then to me, that is possible evidence that that raid group used layers in yet another way to their advantage.

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To be fair, layering is only necessary because blizz made it necessary with these grossly huge servers, and too few servers at launch.

It wasn’t necessary, but it is now unless they start forcibly moving guilds around.

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  1. thats how layering works… you have as many people on a layer as you would have on a server without layering. So the average layer will have the same amount of players as a server without layering… cause thats how it works.

  2. again anecdotal evidence is not gonna disprove blizz saying they are watching it and it is not a problem.

  3. considering how quickly they went through the instance pretty sure they didnt have that many consumables, but you can check the videos pretty it was streamed l.

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I’ve had zero negative effects, except when trying to find someone in a city when they say “Meet me at the fountain”. And that’s resolved by grouping.

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I have had no negative experiences with layering in Classic. It has been totally invisible to me while I’ve played. I wouldn’t even remember it was in Classic if I wasn’t constantly being reminded of it by complaints on this forum.

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I think organizing here is fine. My original post was made in good faith: people say that there are problems, so list the ones that affected you or people you know. Blizzard says they have data for how layers affected the economy (not much), but do they have data on how layers affected player experience. I don’t layers “break the game” because I’m still playing in spite of my experiences with people using them. What I do think that when I come across a situation where another player benefits from exploiting layers is: this isn’t the purpose of layers and it feels like cheating. To me, layers is like “The Matrix”: once you know it exists, you wish it didn’t.

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I have yet to experience any problems.

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I’m tired of people, even my own guildies, asking for new layers.

I’m tired of running people down just to have them disappear before I can catch them because they had one of their friends invite them to a different layer.

I’m tired of missing PvP happening in a parallel universe and I’m tired of not being able to see general chat from everyone. Yes, general chat is separated by layer. My friends and I tested it early on.

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I don’t understand what real benefit it gives to the game or the player experience.

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