Let Anduin be homosexual

If anything it’s just business. Like the old “lie back and think of England” duty to the kingdom. It’s not personal or a comment on their sexual predilections.

It’s not historical by any stretch but I once played a game called Long Live the Queen that, beneath its cutesy veneer, was about the ruthless political maneuvering involved in monarchies and relations between kingdoms and they did in fact feature the option for your queen taking on a lover in addition to the arranged marriages that were for alliances and heirs. Or if you were rendered infertile by overusing magic to defeat an ancient monster you could straight up take a lesbian wife even if it wasn’t called that officially.

Another Roman reference in the Stormwind monarchy is the whole gladiator arc Varian had. Borrowing more from Imperial Rome wouldn’t be weird or bad.

He was a slave to the orc gladiator rings. Stormwind does not practice slavery like the Orcs do.
So… very little roman like when Rome’s economy was held up by their slavery and looting.

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It can also be compared to donors.
They didn’t have artificial insemination back then so the only way to get a child when there was no other way, they’d arrange for such a pairing for exactly such a case.

Hell, they did cross-nation breeding just to make sure they had a “spare child” hidden away in another country as a backup (because child mortality rates were still kind of high, even for Royalty.)

So such an arrangement is in no way “homophobic” when gays and Lesbians still do it today.
We just do it using science now.

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Artificial insemination is very, very different than entering into a marriage, a gay king or lesbian queen being forced to enter a union that they would not otherwise choose for the singular purpose of securing a biological heir, which is what we were talking about. You are completely changing the subject.

“A Marriage of Convenience is a common thing. Azeroth is a magical place, and Artificial insemination would be easy, and it would not require sex. They are allowed as many other relationships as they want. They wouldn’t even need to have sex with the unpreferred mate.”

WOW is not medieval european fantasy, it’s just fantasy.

Still a Roman gladiator reference, stay mad.

Right, because only Romans had Gladiators… :roll_eyes:

Given when the game came out (revival of Roman-themed movies), the plot is a reference to Gladiator (2000)

so you, too, can stay mad

But Orcs are literally based on cultures with Gladiators…

So, you’re mad AND wrong.

Correct both use Roman motifs

Not talking about WoW in general, just stormwind and the human kingdoms.

And completely unrelated to Stormwind’s culture. You know for a guy who claimed in his own Horde rebuilding threads that Horde players don’t barge in and spew their own opinions on what the Alliance needs or doesn’t need. Yet here you are.

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So, I am not reading this entire thread. But I can say, it isn’t about personal opinions or feelings. Anduin could be gay, but we know for a fact bloodlines are important and that doesn’t mean the entire kingdom of stormwind is homophobic. It is just how things work- if it isn’t a Wrynn there would be chaos, and no, adoption doesn’t work.

This is actually a recent plot development for Anduin, as Genn is urging him to take a wife and sire an heir in case anything happens to him. He even goes onto say that the House of Nobles would erupt into chaos at trying to claim a throne if there is no heir to take the throne.

I DO understand wanting to have representation, and there can be that. Just trying to change the government wouldn’t work. It is just how it is in these types of monarchies. Bloodlines are important- your family is this super duper special thing that is CHOSEN to lead. If you don’t have an heir of that bloodline, things go to crap.

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I’m only making this comment to give a perhaps different look on one, or two posabillities people may have overlooked. Not saying either should happen in WoW (it dosen’t seem to be a very restricted world), or these are about Anduin. No.

First things first:
Gay marriages are a thing in Azeroth.

Bloodline and monarchy.

Going with this concept and not adoption, there are at least two, or even more posabillities for fantasy humans.

  1. Marry a woman to keep the bloodline going. Keep your true love at your side, perhaps in the background.
    This could be used (even as a “secret”) in more repressive cultures and would be miserable for some, or most involved.

  2. You could marry the same sex, but you need to prodouce an heir (perhaps even first) and form an alliance with the family of said person.

  3. Polygamie

Etc.

Not saying any of those 3 things are needed, or smart for WoW, but those are themes one can explore in a more “medieval” fantasy setting.

Some of it even seems fitting in a song of Ice and Fire.

I agree that those themes are possabilities, and interesting ones to explore in fiction, I personally enjoy exploring them a lot in both reading and writing. I disagree that they are now appropriate for Azeroth (excluding polygamy, but polygamous relationships are their own unique type of relationship and I think it goes without saying that not every lgbt person wants to or should be required to be in one), considering that making homophobia non-canon means that fantasy humans in a truly non-comphet Azeroth would not be familiar with these concepts (excluding polygamy again). I realize that Genn’s line in Before the Storm and perhaps other areas of canon contradict this, but this lore change happened in 2020 and there is now 17 years of story that was written without taking this into consideration.

The main point that I keep trying to steer this conversation back to is why would a society like Stormwind that is and always has been accepting of something like gay marriage also put into code laws that would require people to enter heterosexual unions instead, either temporarily (“You could marry the same sex, but you need to produce an heir”) or long-term i.e. a lavender marriage (“Marry a woman to keep the bloodline going. Keep your true love at your side, perhaps in the background…”) to ensure the stability of their noble family line, or in a monarch’s case, the succession of who ascends to the throne and possibily the stability of the entire kingdom.

I’m not talking about a couple just organically choosing to have a biological child through other means, which was the point brought up with artificial insemination, I’m discussing the law ordering a gay couple to do so because no other child would legally be considered part of their family bloodline. This seems to completely defeat the purpose of even having gay marriage be socially acceptable in the first place if everyone from monarchs who need to secure heirs to the throne to Westfall pesants trying to pass on their family farm could legally only consider biological offspring as their blood heirs.

Bisexual Anduin would be fantastic, I would be very, very happy if a major lore character like him was added to the cast of lgbt characters in Azeroth, but bisexuality is its own identity deserving of respect as an identity in and of itself, it cannot just be a “convenience” to “make everyone happy” and avoid dodging this issue in the lore. And I would like to point out that when most people talk about “make Anduin bisexual to make everyone happy”, they usually mean “make Anduin bisexual but he still must take a woman as his queen”, excluding the option for Anduin to be bisexual and take a husband.

Holy cake, that is some hot coffee.

When I saw the pictures I felt so bad for her. She was wearing sweat pants and they absorbed the coffee like a sponge. :scream: The entire documentary is interesting and also maddening when you see what happens when they put caps on how much you can sue for. Instead of a the hospital and doctor responsible for malpractice paying for your child’s medical bills for the rest of their life, you and your child have to foot the burden along with the state because now you’re forced to file for aid.

Some people complain about frivolous lawsuits, but they are not as frequent as you would think. Although I would say the firm that filed suit in the condo collapse jumped the gun seeing as they didn’t even waste 24 hours. :angry: I live in South Florida and grew up in Miami, so that’s all very close to me. Anyway, apologies for getting off the subject. :slightly_smiling_face:

Not people - a person - specifically a ruler. Rulers are often required to do things in the real world either based on law, tradition, or politics that the rest of the population are not required to do.

All current examples are that the politics of succession are passed from one generation to the next based on Bloodline inheritance. Magical deals with gods are also passed down in the same way.

Enough to establish a pattern - if you want to break that pattern - that’s fine - but in terms of a narrative - there should be consequences to it.

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Not people - a person - specifically a ruler. Rulers are often required to do things in the real world either based on law, tradition, or politics that the rest of the population are not required to do.

A ruler is a person. You’re dodging my question, which is why would this be coded into law in the first place if a gay or lesbian ruler would not be unusual or even objectional?

All current examples are that the politics of succession are passed from one generation to the next based on Bloodline inheritance. Magical deals with gods are also passed down in the same way.

We discussed this before. The concept of a “bloodline” is what a society deems it to be, it is not strictly biological. This ended with you trying to say that Anduin Wrynn is a real person who comes to life pinocchio style when Christie Golden or some other writer imagines him into being. If we still disagree on what a bloodline actually is in relation to a society’s laws, then this conversation will never move forward.

Enough to establish a pattern - if you want to break that pattern - that’s fine - but in terms of a narrative - there should be consequences to it.

This is irrelevent because like I pointed out, this lore change to make homophobia non-canon happened in 2020 and there is 17 years of canon that was written without this in mind that now needs to conform to this. There is no negative consequence to having Stormwind law in 2021 canon and going forward include codes that make sense considering that there might be gay or lesbian monarchs. There was no established pattern of bi, gay or trans people existing previously, either, but that doesn’t mean we couldn’t then have Flynn Fairwind, Mathias Shaw, and Chromie (…trans dragon, excuse me).