i thought there would be a legacy buff for the raids but im doing normal damage and cant even solo heroic anymore
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Iâm quite certain that the legacy damage wonât be coming until SL drops. They only have the legacy loot enabled.
Iâm confused by you saying youâre doing ânormal damageâ, because when Iâm in Legion instances my damage is about 8x higher than normal. Stuffâs definitely dying more quickly than it was in 8.3.
A lot of enemy abilities still seem to be hitting harder than they should be though. Itâs probably tuned for level 60 so I donât expect much if any of those numbers to be changed because players will quickly forget about the problems once they level up in SL and things are back to missing and they have more HP.
I dont understand how youre apparently grtting much higher numbers but im hitting the same numbers i would be on an enemy thats the same level as me. Im pretty sure blizzard said that we would be able to do all the old content we did before during pre patch. Raids on heroic or higher difficulty are now impossible to solo which was easy to do before
Sounds like somethingâs broken for you then. Simple comparison for me. Breath of the Dying hits for tooltip damage in BfA zones which is about 2400 non-crit. In Legion instances, it hits for 20k non-crit. Thatâs obviously a damage difference that can only be explained by the legacy buff.
But again, itâs not damage dealt thatâs the issue with Legion right now. Like I said, itâs the damage youâre taking thatâs the problem. Youâre getting hit by more abilities and damage is generally higher than it âshould beâ because itâs most likely tuned for level 60 instead. And for most players, theyâll be able to do it just fine at level 60 and wonât care if the scalingâs screwed up. Itâs how Blizz got away with these same problems in the pre-BfA squish. Folks leveled up and no longer cared because it didnât affect them anymore.
Per normal rules, there wonât be any Legacy damage buff enabled for Legion raids until we hit level 51.
In the old system, Legacy damage buffs would kick in at 11 levels past the content (so at 120, we had nothing, at 121, we would have). AFAIK post-squish theyâre still following the same rule.
Itâs probably tuned for level 60
This is utter nonsense that youâve pulled out of your backside. Why the hell would Legion raids, which are now level 45 content, be TUNED for level 60?
Feel free to make the argument that theyâve missed a few things in the squish, but this ainât it.
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When I said âtunedâ, I obviously meant in the context of it being old content. Or to put it another way, itâs âtunedâ to be effortless for level 60 players. Level 50 isnât the max level anymore, so they donât really care about making sure that things got squished 1:1 relative to level 50s. Most of the players who run old content wonât care either, since they typically do it at max level. A lot of the current issues wonât be issues at max level.
As far as the legacy buff goesâŚyou read the top part of my post, right? Clearly, the damage portion of the legacy buff is active in Legion instances right now. But if you can find another explanation for why my stuff hits 8x harder when Iâm running a Legion raid, letâs hear it! More likely you wonât come back with an answer for that one though and just pick one sentence from this post to pick apart again.
isnât intelligence supposed to be your main stat? 
the point of this post is that blizzard said we would be able to do the old content we already did during pre patch. we cannot do the content so there is a problem, i honestly dont care about the numbers and the technicalities and who its tuned for.
ps. since you think damage isnt a problem and its just the damage youre taking that is the problem, go into heroic or mythic tomb of sargeras and tell me how long it takes you to kill the first boss, the low damage weâre doing is definitely a problem.
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How exactly are you envisioning this worked out?
Iâm a dev in charge of the squish, so to do this and test it out I create a level 60 template and go one-by-one to go âLetâs make sure these things donât oneshot this characterâ? But wait, Iâve forgotten the simple fact I could have just created a level 50 template and done the same thing, and by extension it would have been effortless for the level 60 as well?
Or even better, done this for level 45, so by extension that would have covered the actual level range, as well as level 50 and level 60?
(Mind you, this isnât how devving actually works, or how a dev would have done it, but Iâm illustrating the point).
As far as the legacy buff goesâŚyou read the top part of my post, right?
The post which I didnât quote, which you seem to have posted 2 minutes before mine, so quite probably after I started typing on the new post? Damn, how could I possibly have missed that?
If there is a Legacy damage buff active, thatâs probably good, but I probably wouldnât use Breath of the Dying to test that. Itâs an ability that scales with procs that tends to activate at the start of a fight, and has a 200% damage modifier under a certain condition. That could easily account for skewed numbers.
If Iâm free later, Iâll probably go check using Ret Consecrate ticks or something.
Of course, if thereâs a bug causing it not to apply for certain people, thatâs going to change things up too.
I already pointed out that weâre not doing âlow damageâ, and Iâve seen it myself in-game. Damage relative to enemy health is more or less the same as it was in 8.3. Depending on gear level, class/spec changes, and how invested the character was in the corruption system, thereâll be some variance. The one thing Iâll concede is that Blizz most likely didnât bring additional ânerfsâ to old content to account for players being used to corruption, unlike what they seem to be doing for BfA/8.3 content. But outside of that, the scaling as far as use dealing damage to stuff seems to have been done pretty well from what Iâve seen over the past couple days when Iâve been running through Legion content.
What isnât right currently is the damage we take. Itâs harder to survive because of the increased damage intake. Another example! Been running mythic Antorus with a few guildies for the past several months. Aggramarâs a pain in the butt (or at least, the biggest one in the instance). If we let all the adds explode on him in 8.3, big damage, but survivable. Now in the prepatch, thatâs a wipe for sure. It doesnât even take all the adds exploding to kill us. But the funny thing about it is, I look at the numbers and realize yeah, at level 60, itâd be pretty much back to how it was in 8.3. Big damage, but survivable. Of course Iâm just speculating and have some confirmation bias going on here, but it really looks like damage only got squished to make sure itâs not an issue for max level players, at least as far as old content goes. Whether or not that goes against what Blizz saidâŚwell, they said the same thing pre-BfA, and the reality was pretty much the same as it is here. Stuff didnât get squished properly for 110s, but it was no longer an issue for 120s. Wasnât really an issue for players either, once they were able to start leveling again.
Youâre right, my response to that bit was under false pretenses. Turns out I shouldâve read more closely myself, as the bit you quoted wasnât from the post directly above yours.
Both of the casts were openers! The r3 proc wasnât active for either one, and in any case, there isnât really any normal combination of buffs thatâs going to let BotD hit for 20k in BfA content. Especially not while solo!
Probably one major difference from previous squish failures is that we had a limited-time pre-patch. Right now, this one is indefinite while the expansion continues to be worked on, so issues at level 50 are going to be the foreseeable future.
As far as the examples like Aggrammar, I think thatâs probably effectively coincidence*. Especially in combination with the fact that level 50 to level 60 scaling is going to be the weirdest for player health - weâre currently using Azerite that has inflated Stamina values, as well as inflated ilvl Cloak and Neck, but weâll be swapping those pieces out at level 60. This expansion is going to be the lowest increase in survivability while levelling of any expansion.
Bear in mind of course, that just because a Legacy damage buff has been activated, that doesnât mean weâre NOT doing less relative damage. If weâre actually getting 8x damage, but the Legion raid boss has 16x more relative health, that breaks the balance.
*Especially considering a lot of the other squish issues work downward, e.g. Sha of Doubt at level 10. Or are a bigger disparity, e.g. Flame Lev being broken.
Both of the casts were openers! The r3 proc wasnât active for either one, and in any case, there isnât really any normal combination of buffs thatâs going to let BotD hit for 20k in BfA content. Especially not while solo!
Oh yeah, Iâm not doubting you at all. Just offered a possible explanation, and a reasoning for why a different spell is best to rule out any unintentional skewing (and depending on class Iâve seen huge variance on that ability). Thatâs why I went to Ret Consecrate, it has basically no modifiers, does piddly all, and has almost no variance. Other things Iâll probably test are whether itâs applying to pets properly.
I dunnoâŚas far as being able to damage stuff, it really does seem to be more or less the same. Of course, Iâm saying this as a shadow priest, one of the most modified specs in this patchâŚbut I figured taking a look at a group activity as well would somewhat account for that. The only stuff my guild group noticed in our weekly mythic Legion runs is that we had to pay a bit more attention to some mechanics because of the damage, but stuff wasnât really taking any longer to kill. Itâs really unlikely Blizz got it exactly right, but in a practical sense at least, kill speed doesnât look like it got any worse.
The survivability/defensive side of things looks like the real sticking point here. Most damage could just be shrugged off in 8.3, outside of explicit one-shot mechanics and stacking/tank swap debuffs that some gear levels might not be able to outpace. Now, pretty much everything has to be considered and avoidable mechanics in particular seem to be the most painful stuff. Those exploding adds on Aggramar; Imonarâs (red) mines during his bridge phases; even the DoT from getting hit by Argusâ scythes in the last phase killed a few people after the fight was over because we werenât expecting it to tick so hard. This was just Antorus though, and just one run at that. But even that one run was enough to see that thereâs definitely a huge gap between damage output vs survivability compared to 8.3, which is why Iâm trying to point out that only half of the squish seems to be the majority of the problem here!
Also, good point about the stamina! Perhaps being level 60 isnât going to be the âsolutionâ I thought it would be, as Iâd forgotten to consider that. SL doesnât have similar stamina increases anywhere? Iâm not planning to play, so I havenât really lookedâŚ
I think thatâs going to be even more of a distraction. In doing stuff as a group, you have access to tools that a solo player probably isnât using ( class buffs, Hero unless youâre a Hero class, a greater range of interrupts/stuns etc.), as well as damage being focused on tanks or mechanics being spread out among people as opposed to being solo and just having to eat autoattack damage and both mechanics aimed at tanks and mechanics aimed at other roles.
And especially if itâs a class that has to sacrifice resources/damage to boost survivability, itâs going to take even longer, so itâs not a 1:1 on saying âDamage is fine, survivability is notâ. Similarly, the more you do damage, the faster you can push past mechanics or phases and never encounter them, so when solo a relatively smallish decrease in damage can mean a large survivability hit, which if you compensate for could mean even less damage dealt, leading to a larger mechanics deal, etc.
Like I said early on though, Iâm not just looking it it after the squish. Iâm comparing it to before the squish as well! This guild group has been running this stuff for the past few months. Going into the prepatch, we arenât noticing any negative differences in kill speed, only in damage taken. If it was the case that, say, now we have to deal with Aggramarâs Taeshalach Techniques because we canât do enough DPS to skip them anymore, or we wipe on Gulâdan now because we all get chain-stunned by parasites in the Demon Within phase instead of killing him before they go out, I could see that maybe some damage was lost. But thatâs not the case! Weâre just losing more health along the way while weâre killing stuff. Thatâs why I think itâs just survivability thatâs the problem, not damage. Damage output seems relatively the same between 8.3 and 9.0.
Damage output seems relatively the same between 8.3 and 9.0.
Youâre missing the point. Iâm throwing out the possibility that as a group, you have a greater variety of tools that allows you to use group synergy to do a similar amount of damage, or have a more even spread of nerfed/buffed classes, which isnât the same as when youâre solo. You also have a more even spread of variance, e.g. luck with procs.
And, if youâre measuring based on phases or mechanics encountered, you may be having an effect that isnât noticed, e.g. If it takes 30 seconds for a phase mechanic to pop up, and you previously did it in 22 seconds, and now youâre doing it in 28 seconds, youâre still slower, just not to a degree that affects you.
To illustrate a different aspect of that too, letâs say you have a mechanic that stuns 1 in 5 players. As a group of 5, one player gets stunned, the others are doing damage, so youâre keeping up ~80% of damage. As a solo player, youâre losing 100% of damage. You canât use a comparison of the former pre/post patch to the latter pre/post patch, because the two are affected very differently.
SoâŚfor reference I was able to solo M NH in 8.2 and and up to M AvatarâŚI can no longer solo M Guldan and I barely beat the easy TOS bosses nowâŚ
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ran normal antorus last night with some guildies. all of us are 50. was doing 15k dps on the bosses as a bm hunter. thatâs not what i normally do obviously.
The only boss I get up to and then stuck in Normal Antorus now is Coven of Shivarra, and thatâs because of the 99% damage reduction buff. Heroic Kilâjaeden was a lot more sketchy in terms of damage taken, so Iâd imagine a class without decent self-heals and mitigation might find it troubling.
Mythic EN worked out, but I skipped a few bosses because I have the skip available. Xavius was a bit dicey, the burst window is fairly tight and I made it with <1 second to spare. Havenât tried Mythic Nighthold yet.
I didnât read the whole conversation, so Iâm sorry if this has been brought up.
Make sure youâre not in Chromie time version of Legion. I made this mistake the other day
Chromie Time is not relevant to level 50âs. In fact, alts that hit level 50 are pretty much instantly dragged out and ported to Stormwind.