Because M+ is the outlier, and the problem. “Enjoyable” is also subjective - the alleged popularity of M+ is undeniably aided by how over rewarding it is.
It gives one 304 a week. How is it over-rewarding?
A better solution is to remove the lockouts for normal and heroic raiding.
They are training-wheels content just like mythic zero and heroics.
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Maybe they should have told players that about Benthic gear. Because there were a lot of instance players complaining about having to do Nazjatar.
Yeah I agree. If M+ works, why change it? It shouldn’t matter how people get their gear. If anything, buff raid drops
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Because the content (+15) is only about as difficult as a late Normal raid boss, yet the dungeon drop is Heroic raid level, can be upgraded to late Heroic, and then you get Mythic raid level in the Vault. There is zero question that it is massively over rewarding. Guilds regularly finish progressing Normal and Heroic raids decked out in Mythic raid ilvl pieces - it’s asinine.
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That isn’t massively over rewarding. It would be massively under-tuned. OR … the raids are massively over-tuned.
If people are doing 15’s and then doing normal / heroic … then they should be mythic guilds. Why aren’t they mythic guilds … because the structure is too rigid (20 man), and they are too hard to be fun for the majority of people.
You have to complete the graph.
You can’t stop at x=2 and assume that remains the same.
We’ve talked about this a lot
You’ve almost hit the problem, but just missed it.
The raid loot/person rate is based on the fact that as the season goes on, you’re more and more likely to get loot. Let’s say there are 3 hunters in the raid. The bow you want has a 10% drop chance. In week 1, if the bow drops, you have a 1/3 chance if it going to you. The time it drops, you have a 1/2 chance, the next time it drops, it’s 1/1 chance.
All loot goes this way. Its supposed to be a bonus for being part of a consistent raid team.
The problem is, not everyone wants to be part of a team. So they put it with a different group every week and have no way to take advantage of that built in loot acceleration.
Almost the opposite happens in m+. Crappy loot rains from the end chest, but you’re actual upgrades are hard capped at one chance per week. One roll of a 42 sided die, and you have to beat the week number to get loot, for you dnd aficionados. So loot slows down as you go through the season.
Accessibility is the key. They need to have some way for pug players to take advantage of the loot acceleration, and they need a way for m+ players to reach the “top of the mountain”, using Ions turn of phrase.
The right answer that no one wants to hear is flex mythic and hard ban group one shots that aren’t assignable in the design room.
For m+, Ion’s plan to scale the dungeons more aggressively, start at a higher baseline, and offer actual good rewards for purple/orange keys is a good start, but I’m reserving judgement until I hear how he’s going to gate it.
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It’s mostly due to the difficulty and liability ratio.
You can take a raid full of 30 players into Heroic and defeat most bosses with a small fraction of the raid standing for the majority of the right, as long as those that are main know how to play their class, know mechanics, the boss will fail but it will just take substantially longer.
You can’t take a dungeon group of 5 people in a +15 and expect to complete the dungeon on time with 2 of them dead on most, if not all pulls, can you? You might be able to do this in a dungeon like Junkyard this season, but that would be impossible in other dungeons like a Lower Karazhan for example.
I doubt we’ll ever be at a point where an encounter drops a piece of usable gear for every player, because not every piece of loot, even if its higher item level, is usable by every spec.
This is complete hyperbole. Even on my Druid and BDK that I have played religiously since S4 began, there are still pieces I don’t yet have and not all my gear is upgraded as a result, and we’re multiple weeks in.
Just because a streamer who has literally no life but to play WoW can be geared from M+ running 2-3 dozen keys per day is the exception and not the average player.
How?
10 boss raid, 3 hours to clear, 8 drops/boss means a total of 80 drops in 3 hours.
20-min dungeons, 3 dungeons/hour, 6 pieces/hour means a total of 18 drops in 3 hours.
It would take 4.5 days of doing Mythic+ or 13.5 hours to just begin to eclipse the number of drops you would have been eligible for from Raid.
Furthermore, the loot from that 13.5 hours of farming is lower ILVL than Heroic, and requires the Valor system to upgrade, Valor is traditionally capped at 750/wk, so it would take 2 weeks before you can even upgrade a major non-weapon piece 2 ranks or even a 2H weapon by 1 rank.
Players also don’t consider the fact that in an organized raid, people are more apt to trade items even if it’s a minor upgrade to someone else who would benefit more as the collective raid damage means faster clears unlike in M+ where if its entirely consisting of a pug group, chances of that are much, much lower.
I’m not saying that Raid doesn’t need changes, I do genuinely think it does, but I don’t think those changes need to come in a way that it negatively hurts M+ either. I believe they both need to exist, they both need to be gearing options for players who wish to do both modes.
I think the problem is Raiders have convinced themselves they need to do M+ in order to raid Mythic, one theory has been that since NH that raids have been tuned around M+ gear supplementing performance.
The last time I did any significant CE stuff was NYA and many of our CE raiders refused to do M+ because they didn’t like the idea and wanted to either raid log or wanted to focus on other things outside of raid, and we had no issue with multiple clears for everyone who wanted mounts.
To some degree, I have to say I don’t buy the claim, but in any event, I do think whatever is done, if anything, should be done in a way that it doesn’t hurt Mythic+ and focuses on making raiding more fun and engaging for those who want, but doesn’t turn the tide in the opposite direction where people feel they’re compelled to raid. That doesn’t do anything healthy for the game either.
Doesnt matter, let people have fun and do their own forum of content without the fomo of being forced to do content they dont like.
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Yes I do and that’s fine because raiding is boring
Using your numbers:
80 loot / 20 players = 4 loot per player for the week.
18 loot / 5 players = 3.6 pieces of loot, but you can farm way more than that in a week.
Like you said, you need an organize team to even clear some of the harder heroic bosses let alone go into mythic. While anyone can pug to +15 as a “solo” player.
Even at a couple of ilv lower than heroic, the fact that you can farm it as much as you like is going to be better to run m+ especially early in the season where any item is an upgrade.
It’s all boring when you do a deep dive. I’m starting to feel this way about WOW in general. Tab target combat is so dated.
Leave Britney+ alone!
Sorry couldn’t help myself.
Don’t be. It fits lol.
wiggles toes
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All I have to say to this thread is…
LEAVE BRITNEY ALONE
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This.
Not going to name names, but this game became a systems machine starting in WoD and from the little Ive played since returning its still just WOD with prettier wallpaper.
The major focus of the devs are 1) eeking the most out of development dollars 2) forcing you to partake in every system so they can pretend things are successful because “participation”.
They started that crap with garrisons and tied everything to it to force you to do it even though it was a garbage system. Zero respect for you as a player.
The game is dead and hollow and I feel sorry for anyone still stuck in retail. Ive literally had more fun messing with FTP vet systems. Ill probably play WotLK, but retail is hot garbage. The only thing good about it is class design is still top notch. Everything else straight to the trash can.
You had me until this.
Im not talking balance. Ive not really played to the point I could comment on.
But the healers Ive played so far (pala and monk) feels really good playing w/ the decision making process.
People who defend raiding actually make me cringe. I HATE raiding. It’s just not fun anymore. However, you’re forced to do it for m+ because it’s the only reliable way to get the highest item level gear.
They should just buff raid drops, give us a way to farm highest item level gear in m+.
I’m not interested in fights like jailer or sylvanas anymore that just take too long and are not well designed. I’m not interested in fights anymore that take 10 minutes and having one guy get a lag spike because of how over the top spell effects have become and then he one shots the whole raid. I’m not interested in 20 man raid teams that fall apart every three weeks because half the team realize the expansion sucks and quit.