The keywords are: Worst it has ever been.
Its really not small scaling thats the thing as someone who pushed hard for keystone master, each keystone level feels like a drastic increase thanks to blizzard really bad scaling system.
I mean if we are being real BFA had the best mythic + system due to the fact that mythic + had an actual currency and currency vendor that when saved up could be used to get gear pieces that people were struggling to achieve. Also want to say mythic + has not gone uphill alot of players are terrible are doing mechanics and such so its always a bloody disaster most times when pugging. Mythic + has gone downhill as i said if compared to bfa.
we are signing up to be members of a team. our goal is to succeed in the key. we should be doing whatever helps the group succeed.
i donât understand people who go into content with the mindset of âi plan to do the absolute bare minimum i can possibly get away withâ
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- Healers are more burdened, ahmen!
Seriously, they should look to SoD for answers. Warriors have enough stuff that can provide self healing that theyâre fun to tank with, and rogue tanks are absolutely insane but so much fun. SoD Iâve never had trouble finding tanks for any dungeon or raid, because tanking is FUN. As is healing⌠I play a mage thatâs a healer because I heal by DOING DAMAGE. I drop one healing spell and then every arcane spell I cast heals the entire group.
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That bare minimum attitude is what made me quit retail. I got so tired of healers not trying, DPS ignoring the fact that they have interrupts and letting casters keep hitting me with spells while my interrupts are on CD, DPS ignoring CC and breaking it or not even USING their CC when itâs obvious that itâs needed for the encounter, and other tanks who let healers and DPS peel off adds and donât bother to chase them down and instead blame the other player âYOU ATTACKED THE WRONG ONEâ or âYOUâRE DOING TOO MUCH DAMAGEâ⌠Nah bro youâre just not using your taunts or threat builders right or not even trying to keep everything stacked up.
Itâs all bare minimum âIâm just here for the gearâ playing with zero teamwork. It makes me angry.
But Iâll say this: Iâm biased. My first real group experience was back in vanilla where myself (a hunter) a priest and a rogue would pick up a tank and another DPS and run SM over and over and over. We started at like 28 in GY and ran it until we could handle lib, and then we ran lib until we felt safe taking on armory, then cathedral. Our goal was success. To run the content as efficiently as possible with no wipes. We called out adds, we marked things, we helped the DPS and tank for the night with the knowledge we had picked up running it so many times when they struggled, and sometimes they even taught us a few things. We all worked our hardest for the good of the party, not for ourselves. Because if we all succeeded TOGETHER then that meant we also succeeded as individuals. And that became the benchmark for me as to whatâs a âgoodâ group.
Now? That just doesnât happen anymore. Itâs toxicity and me me me. Itâs bare minimums and blaming everyone else for your own mistakes. Itâs just sad. But in classic and SoD, I am starting to find those groups who work for the good of everyone. Iâve even found a guild that has strict rules against charging other guildies for things they need (though itâs okay to give gold voluntarily if you want to help them for helping you. Itâs not a requirement though and if you refuse to help someone over gold youâll be removed) because the goal is for all of us to succeed together.
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it definitely does still happen, but you have to get into higher keys. the people you run into in a 13 are doing these things, for the most part. low keys are absolutely as you described. the most cursed things you can imagine take place in like a +6 Siege.
Itâs not enough that I succeed, others must fail.
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Bring up the fact that S4 of BFA actually managed to grow the playerbase 18 weeks into the patch and Warthin Whiteknights suddenly go silent. (Not massively losing players is impossible according to DF and Warthin m+ defenders)
Gearing was even super fast with deterministic Azerite system, raining heroic loot, 3 loot every run and extra loot for pushing. Not to mention deterministic corruption system.
Can´t believe how M+ is basically getting worse every single expansion at this point, and people are defending it like their lives depend on it here. Just because rewards are more gatekept roflmao.
Yeah, m+ managed to grow its playebase when ppl had played the same dungeons all expansion in the final season.
Says all about how garbage Warthin and Dragonfail m+ was that neither was able to grow the playerbase with fancy rotating dungeons.
People straight up prefer playing the same BFA dungeons for 24 months than playing new Warthin dungeons for 4 months.
âŚ
Wait you think I do my PvPing in WoW roflmao?
What an L basing your entire comment on the idea that I would PvP competitively in this game. Interesting you would resort to that, not surprsing though, PvE players in WoW have always suffered this weird inferiority complex in WoW. Good to see you letting it all out.
I play this game exclusively for the power progression, and PvP in WoW hasn´t meaningfully provided any for an eternity.
So Iâm on your side in terms of the people acting like the TWW systems are just as solid as BFA are misguided. But your points here are missing several key things that make it feel a bit disingenuous.
- BFA S4 week 1 started with 750K keys run; TWW week 1 was 2.5 million. The starting point of an activity is likely to have an impact on its retention.
- The Azerite system took multiple patches to reach the point where you could get items from anywhere except raid and you could change which powers you used on your pieces (at a steadily increasing cost that quickly spiraled out of control).
- Corruption was purely random when BFA S4 released for all except a handful of specific named items which carried a custom corruption. Having to run every world quest that dropped any piece of gear for the chance of getting your best corruption on a piece that was 50 item levels lower than the rest of your gear was awful.
- Conveniently, that 18 week mark when the player base grew during BFA S4 was also the patch where Blizzard added deterministic corruptions. Up until that point, they were a colossal pain, rivaling basically only the random legendary debacle from Legion (that took Blizzard all expansion to fix).
So yes, the players attempting to defend M+ with a statement that itâs impossible for participation to go up after a few weeks are out to lunch. But letâs not forget that week 18 of BFA S4 is when Blizzard released the biggest QoL patch to major endgame systems I think theyâd ever released up to that point in WoW history. I have a feeling if Blizzard did something midway through TWW S1, there might have been a similar resurgence.
Letâs not pretend this was a case of organic growth where players steadily started playing more as the season went on. Weeks 1 - 17 followed basically the same trend of steady decline in participation week over week. Blizzard gave players basically everything they wanted in the middle of the last season of an expansion, and there was a massive spike for several weeks before it started to decline again.
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Iâm not violent by nature, but his face is a threat generator for me. 
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Oh no I agree with that notion.
Hence why I said âtimesâ and not âmostâ or âalwaysâ 
That being said, popular streamers tend to be popular â For a reason.
Either from:
- Having an entertaining personality
- The viewers can relate to the content-creator
- or the masses strongly agree with what theyâre saying
- and in some cases, itâs a mixture two or simply all of the above âŚ
Fairly enough, sometimes there just seems to be a few golden âhitâ moments in their content and that keeps viewers on their list & puts their fame on the rise â but yeah.
However as people have pointed out: Just because an opinion or take is popular â It doesnât necessarily mean itâs the best action to make 
⌠Unless of cause, weâre talking about retconning Shadowlands 
But thatâs another whole story, lol
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What affixes? They removed those you just get numbers now the way you wanted.
Thatâs because itâs the end of the season and everyone is overgeared
There are other things that factor into the apparent lower numbers. Keep in mind that this is the first expansion with delves, which offer rewards on par or better than what most causal players would see in mythic+. On top of that, outside of the final season of DF we are dealing with the mythic 0 squish. The average players probably wasnât doing much over a 10 key before the squish, so they are probably doing mythic 0 now and that throws off the numbers.
Really the best way to compare would be to look at 12s+ in DF and compare that to 2+ in TWW. As there will no data for the lower keys to actually compare with.
I donât know what size mythics you runâŚ.
But there are more groups looking for healers than tanks in the 11-13 key range.
I agree mildly with the tank changes, but at the same time time I disagree. I have a prot warrior and a paladin. The prot warrior is pretty solid. The prot paladin is pretty squishy until you get all of your defensives running.
I understand that going from a 7-8 where really as either tank you donât have to use defensives almost at all. In 10s is where you really feel the need to. Using shield wall right before a aggroing the first group, or any other ability before fully getting agro is almost a must. This only grows with each key jump.
My honest opinion is we only need to run 10s for myth track, several people look at 3k io as some sort of bar, but the bar achieves nothing really. Itâs not until you get 3600until you might get the title. So who cares about anything after a 10.
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I think the latter is gone already? I dont keep up with D4/mobile whatevers so dunno about the former.
But, what I think you mean is until Ion moves on nothing will change.
Not sure about that. M0 with the âheroicâ dungeon gear was just as easy as DF M0. Barely harder than heroic.
Since Legion M+ is their crown jewel and their intent is to drive it to the ground.
What does that say about them and the current state of retail?
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