Another genius like Benmarch. Preach, my Brother in the Light!
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Our pvp issues now is healing and dmg tuning.
Our hp gen out of melee is good
Exactly. A mage with only Ret mobility would be considered a slow or stationery ranged spec due to all the roots, stuns, and snares in the game, Steed prevents 0 CC and Ret cant Blink out of CC and be across the room. Ret having less range than mage and half the range of MM hunter does not make it feel better to play because “well at least Ret has some medium range”.
Players that enjoy playing Ret as is in pvp, my hats off to you. You’re playing pvp on hard mode and I hope you do well. Yall must be exceptional to PVP with Ret specific handicaps like no MS, no instant mobility, Forbearance, no disarm, no invisibility, no meaningful self healing in your damage rotation…I feel bad for Ret players, but if you’re happy thats great.
We are encouraged in pvp to fight fully at range. A thing that needs to be fixed, as we should fight in melee in all forms of content. We really don’t even need the range in pve.
And FV is a weapon swing…
Yup, and also they might as well remove auto swing from us entirely. And plate armor.
We shouldn’t have good hp generation out of melee as a melee class.
ehhh, it’s a little bit more than that. While tunning is an issue for all classes, Paladins have lost a substantial amount of tools while others, who have received class tree reworks, have gained.
First you look at the tools Paladins have lost, examples:
- Lost range on Interrupt
- Lost the range on Auto-Attack + Crusader strike (HP generation)
- Lost the snare on WoA
- Lost the flexibility and control of Consecration (breaks CC/Anti Stealth)
Second, because PvP is player vs player, you also have to look at what others have gained in comparison and how that effects your Class.
Example:
Hunter’s Tranq shot removes magical buffs, one of our weaknesses. Tranq Shot is being buffed in tWW.
- Tranquilizing Shot removes up to 1 additional Magic effect from up to 2 nearby targets
https://www.wowhead.com/beta/spell=459983/kodo-tranquilizer
So Paladins are being hit on two fronts, we ourselves are getting weaker overall, while other classes are getting stronger.
In addition to that, these other classes getting stronger are doing so in ways that ease up on their “weaknesses.”
- Hunter - Weakness = Glass Cannon
- in tWW they get two charges of all their powerful defensives.
- Warrior - Weakness = Self Healing
- in tWW they get more self healing via class talent reworks
- Death Knight - Weakness = Mobility
- in tWW they get more mobility and control than anyother class in the game.
Then Paladins
- Paladin - Weakness = Maneuverability
- in tWW this is being made worst by removed things like Crusader’s Reprieve
- Paladin - Weakness = Dispels
- in tWW this is being made worst by buffing the dispels of other classes
I don’t say this to be rude, but who ever is in charge of the Paladin class design is not really taking World of Warcraft as a whole into consideration with this expansion’s changes.
They are being very shortsighted in their design changes and it’s ultimately going to make paladins feel like half of a class, again. =/
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From a PVP perspective, i’m concerned about Ret survivability, they nerfed all Rets defensives and buffed basically everyone else, to the point that even hunters, that have almost all tools at their disposal, now have more dmg reduction and self healing thn us.
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I want to correct this. Range is not maneuverability. Please do not lump them in the same catagory. Other then that this is good feed-back.
We do need more maneuverability, but we do not need range.
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Range is fine and I’m GLAD Blizzard gave it to us.
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I wouldn’t say we’re encouraged, more like privileged to be able to fight at mid ranged when needed.
For pvp, we have to kite for defensive reasons or we’re being kited and need to have some pressure
For pve, when moving out of mechanics.
Ultimately, both requires us to be in melee, especially in TWW, since Templar strikes hits harder than FV
We need a gap closure to cover this, not range.
We should not have the ability to kite, but we should be able to depend more on steed to avoid big bad spells, as such steed needs a snare/root breaker built-in. It even makes sense fantasy wise, with the horse being a different entity then you and having stronger legs then us to pull out of stuff.
A proper gap closure can fix this for closing back in, otherwise steed serves this purpose well.
But again, our gap is covered by our range utility.
At this point in time we don’t need much help than the typical melee to close the gap and keep up pressure outside of maybe steed clearing active slows and snares.
But if what you want as a fantasy is to always be in melee, which I understand, then you have that already between cstrike
templar combo and art of war.
Like there is no scenario in which we’re not being kited or we don’t have to kite to survive where we should not be in melee range.
That being said, I think wings of liberty would be a nice choice node with cavalier.
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I disagree with this, tbh. I think DKs having Clawing Shadows on a 30 yard range is a privilege because their toolkit doesn’t really require more range on their abilities.
(And this is coming from having a 2400 DK, I’m not rank1, but I’m not an ape)
With having multiple grips, insane slows, micro CCs, and so on… the toolkit is powerful enough that DKs don’t necessarily need extra range.
The range for Paladins is required because our lacking mobility and anti cc/knockback toolkit, which is why we got the range talents added in the first place.
It’s not a privilege but a necessity.
The issue is that range, that necessity, is being removed in tWW without compensation.
Until some of that is removed in tWW with the removal of Crusader’s Reprieve.
With Crusader’s Reprieve gone, Paladins are now the only Class without range or an instant gapcloser (like shadowstep) to supplement our kick with.
What’s the trade off? What’s our compensation or the reward for landing one of the hardest kicks to land?
- Ret: Are we mid-range or are we melee? (Cause we just got melee nerfs?)
- Hpal: Are we melee or caster?
- (PvP) Prot: Are we a healer or Tank?
Again, it’s not a personal thing. It’s just a question of the Paladin design. Blizzard says we can’t have mobility because we are a “mid range spec” but then removes our mid range attacks because we’re melee?
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IDK why people are.still hung up on losing CR, I’ve been playing on beta and I can hardly feel the difference.
No one used CR to kite people or meaningfully close a gap, if anything it just gave you a very slight edge to kick a caster.
Jurisdiction is what really gives us our mid range, and that hasn’t changed.
That being said I agree with your DK comparison. Clawing Shadows definitely feels like overkill combined with grips and other tools.
Jurisdiction definitely is a necessity from a pvp standpoint. But from pve is feels more like a privilege, where mobility isn’t as important and ret mobility is sufficient in.
Keeping up most of my dps while dodging fire and doing mechanics is very unique for ret
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It’s not to be hung up on it, I’m not saying Paladins are unplayble because of it, it’s just to bring awareness to this unfun situation this causes.
Had I been any other class, I could have interrupted that ability. Whether it was with an instant gap closer, or because I had further range on my kick.
Had I been any other class, I could have gotten that Druid out of stealth to stop their drink. But since I no longer have that freedom and control over Consecration, I no longer have that ability.
Same goes for dispellable CC, dispellable defensives, whatever.
And I know it comes off as “Congratulations, you’ve discovered Paladins have weaknesses.” I know Paladins have weaknesses, and they should, I’m just trying to highlight the extent of Paladin’s weaknesses compared to others with the powercreep coming in tWW.
We should have Wings of Liberty on a choice node with Cavalier, I’m just trying to give justification to it. 
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Only if base steed removes snares and slows to make it actually compete with leap.
I have a question concerning one of our Talents: Burn to Ash in comparison to our Hero Talent, Templar.
It states: Your other damage over time effects deal 30% increase damage to targets affected by Truth’s Wake.
My question is since our new Hero Talent Templar state: Wake of Ashes is REPLACED with Hammer of light, does this mean there is no Truth’s Wake once we throw out Wake of Ashes? And if so, does it mean Burn to Ash is not worth taking?
Appreciate any and all responses.
You need to cast wake to get access to use hammer of light.
Think of it like ts’s 2 hit combo without the gcd reduction.
So you still have truth’s wake.
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So you’re saying Truth’s Wake is still in effect even though Hammer of Light replaces Wake of Ashes?
Okay, good to know.
Promote this person to lead Paladin designer (not sarcasm). You’re saying everything people know but wont admit unless they pvp as Ret.
The question that remains is will blizzard fix it. I fear not, and I’m feared with Blessing of Spellwarding active as well.
Why a choice node, why not pick both if you want?
Warrior gets intervene, charge, and leap
MM faster normal walking than most, even faster walking out of combat, disengage clears slows and
snares and they get a sprint after disengage and a separate sprint, can move while invisable possibly without any problem
Rogues, let me count the ways, Shadowstrike, Shadow Step, sprint, other speed modifications in talents, Death from Above pvp talent(if that is still a thing), moving possibly without a problem while invisible, being invisible can make them even faster, can talent to be faster without an invisibility requirement.
Mage, double blink charges, bending the fabric of time and on command, going to where they were previously with that times health and location (god level ability), moving possibly without a problem while invisable
Ret has no need to be missing instant mobility nearly every spec has, Blessing of Freedom is stolen or dispelled ie not compensation for lacking instant mobility, Divine Steed is a super visually telegraphed crowd control magnet, it is literally the button you press to receive CC, ie not compensation for lacking instant mobility.
In M+ and raid Ret is ok with mobility. For pvp it is inadequate because of what most specs have.
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