Kevin Martens and Frank Kowalkowski Interview

[Anelaan-wyrmrest-accord (Anelaan)]

I’m glad to know that when I spend the next several months killing Rastakhan as a Horde player it’s because Blizzard somehow managed to make Lordaeron such a non-issue to both factions that it wasn’t even close to balancing out the loss of Teldrassil.

[Galenorn-wyrmrest-accord (Galenorn)]

I can understand that. But your other favorite drum to beat is the disparity between what they intend the narrative to convey, and how the narrative is actually percieved and recieved by the playerbase. Which, imo, is the issue with claiming Dazar’alor is parity for Teldrassil.

[Saiphas-ravencrest (Saiphas)]

/Snark

But that’s the beauty, see you won’t be killing Rasta as a Horde player, but as one of those dastardly Alliance dogs. With the added bonus of unreliable dialogue thrown in for added fun times!

/snark off

Edit @Galenorn: Absolutely agreed. I don’t claim the faction war is good now do I?

[Kurogasa-stormreaver (Kurogasa)]

So, just to be clear, when I do part of the raid, I’m not actually raiding as Horde but rather as Alliance. Hypothetically, if the raid gives me the option to run through the marketplace and throw a big fat AoE into a nearby orphanage, it’s actually the Alliance doing this and not me? Am I understanding this correctly?

Also, can I buy some property in the middle of Zuldazar and get some premium insurance on it? I mean, some Alliance rogue who totally isn’t related to me might come by and ransack it in 8.1 I need to protect myself from definitely not myself, after all.

[Hackbrew-wyrmrest-accord (Hackbrew)]

To conclude, they seem to be ONLY looking at the score in terms of major story event tallies, which is why they’ve concluded that Dazar’alor restores things to even. Players, however, have been experiencing the story not just through these major events, but through gameplay as well, which is why I think it is possible for them to both think that things are “even” while at the same time the Horde can feel like they’ve been kicked into the mud with 8.1.

I love how terrible your post makes me feel regarding BfA. Fills me with that good sort of smoldering contempt. Keep up the good stuff.

[Daiza-kelthuzad (Daiza)]

I personally could care less about Team Red or Team Blue whining further about Teldrassil and Dazar’alor.

I’m just happy I was right about the Son of the Wolf ending being an alternate future.

[Saiphas-ravencrest (Saiphas)]

I think you are…misreading me. I was making a joking statement from the point of view of blizzard. Not that I actually agree with said statement. Kurogasa I’d have thought you’d know by now I am not a fan of this faction war nor how they are playing it out.

[Kirango-wyrmrest-accord (Kirango)]

To balance bad story beats, they have the Horde become pure evil, and then be defeated in Dazar’alor.

Genius.

Thanks for posting btw, Dawn.

Here’s where I suspect the disconnect is. Their view is like this:

1. Burning of Teldrassil happened. Major “bad thing” for the Alliance.

2. Siege of Lordaeron is a break-even, maybe slightly for the Alliance, maybe not, but no real winners.

3. Burning of Dazar’alor counteracts event 1, bringing things back to parity.

But we, the players, experienced something a little different:

1. Burning of Teldrassil happened. This is still unquestionably a major dump on the Alliance, but the Horde begins to fracture over the bluntness of Sylvanas’ villainization.

2. Siege of Lordaeron is a break-even as far as the military tally goes, but is still stuffed chock-full of ‘Horde tension’ themes, including Anduin’s “She’s blighting her own troops” and Saurfang’s decision to try and suicide by Alliance.

3. Horde and Alliance players quest from 100 to 110 in the new zones. Alliance players experience themes of renewal, empowerment, reconciliation, and redemption, while Horde players experience decay, defeat, fracture and frustration.

4. Horde and Alliance players partake in their respective War Campaigns. Alliance War Campaign has them strike at a number of Horde assets (even if some of them don’t exist for the Horde, the spymaster and the Golden Fleet are big ones). The Horde War Campaign is a muddled mess that involves raising a few undead and hunting for a corpse of questionable value, which is discarded at the end of the campaign (Valentine) and a random artifact which is given scant explanation (Tide Scepter).

5. The Battle of Dazar’alor occurs. The Horde suffers a defeat here while the Alliance claims a victory, a fact noted by NPCs of both sides.

6. The War Campaign continues in 8.1. The Horde’s efforts of the previous patch are almost entirely invalidated with the theft of the Tide Scepter, and all that remains is Derek Proudmoore’s corpse, which is used only to further Sylvanas villainization and Horde disunity themes. The Alliance opens up a new front of questionable value in Darkshore, and Tyrande gains a power-up of questionable value. The Horde raises Night Elves. Nobody seems particularly happy with the course of these events.

7. Horde disunity continues with the Saurfang saga. Horde players are being asked to explicitly pick a side, cementing and canonizing the divide in the playerbase.

To conclude, they seem to be ONLY looking at the score in terms of major story event tallies, which is why they’ve concluded that Dazar’alor restores things to even. Players, however, have been experiencing the story not just through these major events, but through gameplay as well, which is why I think it is possible for them to both think that things are “even” while at the same time the Horde can feel like they’ve been kicked into the mud with 8.1.

You have summed up the problem beautifully, although I’d add the wrinkle that Alliance players who do not have Horde alts are likely to be unaware of the nuance of our story content, and thus less likely to appreciate those

themes of renewal, empowerment, reconciliation, and redemption,

because they have not had to deal with what we get, instead.

Naturally, the uplifting, feel-good nature of the Kul Tiras campaign is lost on, say, Night Elf players, because it feels like it trivializes their loss.

You’ve talked about how Blizzard consumes the narrative very differently from players, and I’d like to put forward another variation on that:
Blizzard views the factions as aggregates- Alliance and Horde. Players, on the other hand, often identify first with their subfaction (orcs, trolls, night elves), but still see the other faction as an aggregate.

This is why many Horde players don’t take any particular pleasure in Tinderdrassil- there is no Horde race that actually benefited from that choice, nor did it prove a strategic loss to the Alliance as a whole, in any way that the game has shown.

Likewise, the reason those night elf players are so unmoved by both the reunification of Kul Tiras and the raid on Dazar’alor- the former has nothing to do with the Kaldorei, and feels like a “distraction,” rather than the classic heroic arc it actually is, while the latter is a strike on an enemy that wasn’t even affiliated with the Horde at the time of the, let’s face it, watershed event that will basically dominate the priorities of those players for the foreseeable future.

This is one of the few problems with this expansion’s reception that can only be tangentially laid at Blizzard’s feet- it’s not their fault that players categorize the world differently than they do, but it IS something they’ve had ample cause to be aware of for years, now, and it is something that would never have been as much of a problem if they hadn’t committed to doing a story specifically about the faction war.

[Ivalesse-moon-guard (Ivalesse)]

Interesting stuff. Too bad it’s buried under all the Horde whining in here.

[Saiphas-ravencrest (Saiphas)]

Kirango, that is an excellent summation and addendum. Agreed on all counts.

Edit: minor quibble, Zandalar is affiliated with the Horde (they inter into a little ‘a’ alliance), but not responsible for teldrasil.

[Kirango-wyrmrest-accord (Kirango)]

I mean, I’m sick of all the night elf whining, but I don’t complain about it publicly because I know it matters to them, and that their priorities are different from mine, and that that difference does not render them invalid.

[Ivalesse-moon-guard (Ivalesse)]

Well, you kinda just did, bud. Also by that same token, why assume I that think their complaints are invalid?

[Kirango-wyrmrest-accord (Kirango)]

You’re right; I should not have engaged on your level. Those concerns matter a great deal to Night Elf players, and have affected their enjoyment of the lore as much as the Horde story has affected mine.

I infer that you think our complaints are invalid because at every possible opportunity, you show up to troll discussion threads and reduce those concerns to “Horde whining.” Consistently.

[Ivalesse-moon-guard (Ivalesse)]

Whining is whining, buddy. I hate the fact that Trump is president, but that doesn’t mean I like the constant need to berate and complain about him for every decision he makes.

[Kirango-wyrmrest-accord (Kirango)]

I don’t want to get down the rabbit hole of RL politics, but part of the reason people speak out so vocally about Trump is to fight the normalization of his more unprecedented actions.

Your posts about “horde whining” are reductive and dismissive, and you should expect to be called out for it, just as we call out the horde posters who treat the alliance playerbase the same way.

[Ivalesse-moon-guard (Ivalesse)]

The Horde getting called out? On THESE Story Forums?

I didn’t know you were an aspiring comedian, Kirango!

[Kirango-wyrmrest-accord (Kirango)]

Siaphas, gonna leave this to you. Got no need to beat my own drum, here.

[Daiza-kelthuzad (Daiza)]

This is one of the few problems with this expansion’s reception that can only be tangentially laid at Blizzard’s feet- it’s not their fault that players categorize the world differently than they do, but it IS something they’ve had ample cause to be aware of for years, now, and it is something that would never have been as much of a problem if they hadn’t committed to doing a story specifically about the faction war.

Moving On

I don’t necessarily disagree with this, but I don’t agree with it either.

Basically, Blizzard shouldn’t shy away from faction war storylines. Light knows we need the plot to come back down to earth and good ol’ Red vs Blue is the smart way to do it.

But as you said, the problem is that players only care about how their specific races fare in the grand scheme of things. Which becomes a @*$& and a half to do right because you will always end up leaving some races in the dust. Night elf players are crying foul for Teldrasiil, as they do, but meanwhile Gnomes had 1 patch focusing on them, and they didn’t even succeed in taking Gnomergan, just the area up top and around it. Horde side, the Forsaken have gotten the lions share of the storylines, followed by the goblins. Save for token mention of a few, none of the other Horde races are even mentioned.

[Kirango-wyrmrest-accord (Kirango)]

Kirango, that is an excellent summation and addendum. Agreed on all counts.

Edit: minor quibble, Zandalar is affiliated with the Horde (they inter into a little ‘a’ alliance), but not responsible for teldrasil.

Blame this on the vagaries of English grammar; they were not, as I said, affiliated at the time of Teldrassil, but are as of the current point in the narrative.

[Aíretam-tichondrius (Aíretam)]

when has something bad happen to an allaince leader, and didn’t come back stronger?

In fact dead allaince leaders/characters seem to be dealing back from the grave aka turlyion.