That’s the way Twitter and other social media seemed to take it. After Zappiboi™ and that, there was a pretty big upswing of Horde morale over there.
I would love both Drustvar and Vol’dun as Warfronts! Recruits for the Alliance and Horde on both Warfronts would be a nice addition!
Ya know, it would go a long way if Alliance victories weren’t either led by or followed up with the phrase “at great cost”.
The fact that they apparently had a split faction raid set up from the get go because even they felt that the Battle for the Undercity would be underwhelming (and is described to be Pyrrhic at best for Alliance) and they would need an actual balancing act later down the line is a bit frustrating.
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Well, there was Brill and we never learned what happened to it.
I do think that the difficulty with the “fist pump moment” part is that there is a split between those who want every action to be measured and methodical and those whose mindset is “red is dead”.
There’s probably a lot who view the burning of Teldrassil as a huge success for the Horde because the Alliance is the eternal enemy. There was lots of cheering at Blizzcon when they mentioned that for instance.
For that demographic of players would a simple capturing of the tree with a bunch of captive Night Elves really felt like a victory?
I don’t think there’s a great way to give both a fist pump moment. For that matter, we basically are getting that reversed in BoD but many don’t feel it goes far enough.
Tl;dr I think what people want: “a clear, complete victory without going morally black” isn’t possible. Not going morally black will cause not all objectives to be achieved.
To be fair, this is a common phrase used by both factions when facing a large enemy as an attempt to make it feel dangerous.
Actually, it’s just common in war based fiction. I wouldn’t pay attention to it very much.
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Based on the discussion we had in the discord, this honestly makes me even more infuriated at what happened with Undercity.
They pretty much acknowledged that it’s destruction is meaningless and losing it doesn’t matter to the story at all.
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NO GOD PLEASE, NO! STOP! no more warfronts!
not a big fan of being turned into horde but i can live with it.
no civilians were killed neither in undercity and dazarlazord (that we know of)
and undercity was not destroyed by the alliance.
i am not complaining, 8.1 is everything i could want for me, i can’t ask anymore.
that doesn’t mean that everyone else will be happy…
i don’t think that blizzard understand what they have done with teldrassil. they must be thinking that everyone is enjoying it… when the true is… only fans of certains characters and races are enjoying the story, and that is a minority.
Isn’t this the fourth thread on this subject? Mista isn’t happy.
Yep, which I think is essentially because of, as you noted, the differences in which the playing community and the development team consume the narrative. It is a fundamentally different perspective that shapes the relation to the narrative.
Edit: As a reminder to everyone. Though Zandalar is not incorporated into the Horde, they are allied to the Horde by the start of 8.1. They are equal partners at that point, it is not until the BfDa that the Zandalari are crippled to the point they need the Horde’s security. But they are absolutely providing war support to the Horde by 8.1.
So what we have here is…
Step 1: Horde run roughshod and kill Night Elf soldiers and civilians (even if the player doesn’t, by the time we Alliance get there the civilians are all dead). They exterminate Ashenvale and Darkshore, then burn down Teldrassil killing thousands of innocent civilians.
Step 2: Alliance assault Lordaeron as retaliation, but somehow forget to bring a counter for plague… Despite the fact that Sylvanas uses it for everything from tea parties to genocides, and walk into traps layered so thick the only way to get them out is by a bunch of asspull deus ex machinas. Sylvanas nukes her own city, Alliance walk away empty handed.
Step 3: Blizzard “balances” the Alliance loss by saying Dazar’alor is parity, ignoring the fact that we go in and demand Rastakhan surrender as our goal. He refuses, and despite being 200+ years old, having Rezan artificially lengthen his lifespan, and then selling his entire bloodline’s souls to Bwonsamdi to keep power, he fights against us until death; which means we’re basically pulling the plug on a patient with terminal cancer who’s doctor is on his side to keep billing insurance… and then we run away with our tail between the legs because Horde Cavalry showed up and beat two of our leaders into uselessness.
Apparently 3 Alliance losses = 3 Horde wins?
Math is fun. That’s not counting the revelation that Son of the Wolf is now apparently a ‘what if’ which deletes a lot of the whinier Horde posters who say “Anduin has plot armor! Look at that comic!” because now it’s a hypothetical. All this says to me is that Blizzard either doesn’t know what they want and plan a retcon, or they’re explicitly going to kill Anduin off.
Wonderful.
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Really, upon looking at it again, this interview kinda leaves me speechless. They genuinely seem to have no idea how much they have screwed the horde story, and don’t even seem to be planning a way to fix it.
We have no motivation for the war, aside from an immediately proven false premise. We begin the war by committing what blizzard themselves have referred to as a genocide, resulting in most horde fans losing all hope, motivation, and desire within this story at all.
Going forward, we achieve mediocre results in zandalar, failing a lot along the way. Everything we achieve in our war campaign is either completely evil, or completely pointless.
Come 8.1, we are expected to face retribution for all the aforementioned. We lose what we acquired from our war campaign, our new allies get their leader killed, and all we achieve is a few more pure evil acts, that will most likely come back to bite us.
I don’t mean to rant and whine, but really, what is there in this for a Horde fan? This war has no motivation, AND we are evil monsters the whole time. On top of that,w e are facing ANOTHER civil war, which will destroy many characters and themes within the horde, regardless of which side wins.
And to top it all off, blizzard doesn’t even come across as aware of these problems. Honestly, I don’t even know what to say anymore.
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that is not all, because 8.1 is not the revenge for teldrassil that people wanted, undercity and the troll city raided is not enough.
not civilians were killed and no city was nuked by the alliance.
The horde continues to make atrocities and claim that it was “pragmatic” while the alliance only need to put to work one of their demigods characters to give them a victory without even having to kill a single civilian.
all while writing out others elements of the story like turalyon,the vindicar, or alleria out of the story because the horde wouldn’t be able to win if the alliance goes all out.
man this story is going to end so well… (sarcasm)
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Depends on the person, not all of us are Etheldald. I am perfectly content with the BfDa for instance and view it as a clear Alliance victory.
Edit: to be clear, the Battle of Dazar’alor is a significant military victory for the Alliance. We do significant damage to the Zandalar’s ability to project power, and as a result of the battle are in a position of strategic advantage against the Horde. That it did not accomplish a political objective it could never accomplish is alright in my books. We still obtain significant strategic objectives in the battle. I’ll take that as a win.
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If everything before 8.1 is supposed to truly create Faction Pride and elation within the Horde playerbase, then I really don’t know how to approach it.
Saiphas has been ringing his bell in the town square, telling us all that there’s a disconnect here. It’s still so bizzare to imagine that great a gap, though.
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i am going to quote myself from another thread.
8.1 is everything i could want as a jaina/kultiran fan,i literally cannot ask anything else.
i never said that i didn’t considered 8.1 as a victory.
that doesn’t change that nelfs fans will still demand for more blood, and i can understand their sentiment. because to be fair, do they really care about some trolls? i don’t know, maybe we should ask nelfs fans about it.
Etheldald, respectfully, you have been beating the vengeance drum for a good long while my dude. I was referencing the specifc thing about destroying a city which you have said is what you would consider proper recompense for Teldrasil.
I can’t speak for all of them, but my quarrel is with the Forsaken, MU Orcs, Mulgore Tauren, Darkspear and Shatterspear Trolls, and the Blood Elves. The ones actually complicit in Sylvanas’ genocide, by paving the way to Teldrassil for her. As much I don’t like the Zandalari on principle, just for being Horde-sympathetic, I don’t see attacking someone who had nothing to do with Teldrassil as justice, vengeance, or parity for Teldrassil.
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This is because it is a narrative equivalent, not an actual one for one in the sense that it should satisfy a NE player. Blizzard does not consume the narrative in the same manner we players do. So for them, teldrasil represeted the destruction of NE society writ large or atleast the loss of significant life. The attack on Dazar’alor ends the Zandalari empire as an independent state. It instead becomes incorporated into the Horde. Forever losing their independence.
Another way to look at it is the NEs lost something important to who they are, their homeland. The Zandalari now also have lost something important, their independence and pride as being a Great Power in their own right.
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fair enough, my mistake then.
but… do you honestly see 8.1 as compensation for teldrassil?
i guess that the alliance really don’t need to atrocities to win.
everything else would be senseless murder… just like teldrasil.
then i guess that you are right, depends on the person, i can respect that.
but like i said in the other thread, if the nelfs gains the spotlight they deserve i would be satisfied, because pretty much that is what always happens with the alliance.
What I think is proper or not is honestly irrelevant. Because i can not speak as if my preferences are the same as another player’s. Preference aggregation is extremely hard.
What is relevant is what Blizzard intended to convey and why. Because, as I keep beating this drum myself, how we consume and they consume the narrative is different.
If we accept at face value that blizzard considers it a narrative trade, then we need to ask ourselves why do they think that, and just as importantly what does that mean for the implications going forward.