Yep, same as 4HP spenders, slow and sluggish.
And here lies the “brilliance” in how is intended HoL to behave, being a 1 time 5HP spender doesn’t feel sluggish because there’s no repetition.
Beside, you open with a judgement and then wake which means you’re already at 5 from your opener, so it feels natural.
4 was always an odd number and that sucked.
Back in 10.0.7 ptr the first iteration of vanguard of justice made FV a 5hp spender with 60% increased damage. That was fun and was bssicslly bugged HoL. Made the spec feel slow and heavy which to me is much more in line with a two hsnded weapon wielder over this hasty spammy ret spec we have now
Yeah I remember this, maybe the choice should have been between 3-5 as 1 point but it wouldn’t have changed how slow it felt, which is what I , and I think others too, specifically disliked.
Admittedly wouldn’t be a problem if it was a net 0 gain but balancing this talent strength to be a net 0 gain and purely a gameplay choice against talent point economy was always going to be a tall ask.
Idk about others but I would have loved that version of ret. At 5 was fine but 4 was always weird. Bugged HoL was kinda degenerate in having to run against the clock to fit as many casts as possible, same reason why I hate Execution sentence.
Maybe, hopeful thinking, HoL gets changed to allow two casts instead of one. Its just a feel good spell. We will also have to see how it works with the new trees coming in 10.0.5
I mean it does every other cast roughly.
And it does feel good to cast it more than once, but it doesn’t feel good to dump all my HP into it over and over. Which is why i prefer the one + the freebie instead of the build and dump playstyle.
The playstyle of building to 5 points to get as many hammers out as possible was a fun change of pace to the spec. I think these are one of those times where even though it was a bug it ended up being what is called a “happy accident” in the creative world. I think that should return in some way or another and balance around that happening. Only pressing it once is kinda lame after experiencing its “bugged” version.
What do mean? This is insanity.
We literally had that past expac in Vanguard of Justice and it felt awful.
Now suddenly because it deals more damage and gives buff its fun?
That’s the same concept only with exploded tuning in exchange for limited availability .
And people are asking for the limited availability to be removed, only then it won’t hit has hard and they’ll be back on “uhh that’s not fun to build to 5 for such a low payout”.
This so stupid, we virtually went through this literally past expac, we already know what it does and how it feels.
Why are people asking to do a VoJ 2.0 Electric boogalo?
They captured the essence of a 5HP spender almost perfectly with the intended behavior.
It blast, it’s meaningful to your rotation through lingering buffs and effect and you work to maximize your windows to get a Free cast more often.
While I’ve done a lot of PvP in previous Xpacs. I 100% agree, PvE shouldn’t be negatively effected for PvP changes and vice versa.
Yea personally i hated VOJ with a passion. It was a terrible idea.
I missed out on this bug but i dont think having it have multiple uses is a good thing. Honestly they just need to buff HOL by a decent amount along with most of our damage kit.
Depending on the end goal, there are various options.
Buffing HoL for more spike damage
Buffing the empyrean hammers for more consistent damage
Nerfing Herald (although they seem to be rather close) while buffing base kit.
Etc.
All pretty good options over “LeAvE iT BrOoKeNN” 
Ret needs to be LESS reliant on short burst windows, not MORE reliant on them.
First of all WHY do empyrean hammers drop on “a nearby target”. Hammerfall and shake the heavens should make empyrean hammers drop on your target FIRST. Reason why templar lacks in pvp specifically is because EH drop on random pets, totems, summons… literal wasted damage. Fight a dk or enh shaman and watcb your EH hit their wolves that will expire…
Unless you are hitting an entirely isolated target, EH just hit everything in sight besides main target. Just stupid. Only when they crit they “cleave”.
Empyrean hammers AND hammer of wrath should do something more for HoL. As it stands now in pvp and pve templar rets HoW do very little damage. Maybe each HoW and EH buff the next HoL?
That’s very fair.
I suppose they didn’t consider PVP at all for this, which is a shame, again, but not entirely surprising given their record on PVP.
Functionally has low impact in PVE whether it’s one or the other so it should be on your target IMO.
They should do this.
Flameshaper Devoker’s engulf can crit for up to 4mil right now, and they get a charge every 20 seconds.
HoL does a little less than half as much. So… it would be cool if it did almost that much damage, and perhaps make people feel like the limited uses are more justified.
They should also give the Empyrian hammers a visibility pass because they can be easy to miss for how much they contribute to your dps.
Id rather have my FV hit harder over HoL being the o ly button capable of dealing damage
this is also fair
My main gripes with Templar are visuals.
The delayed hit feels off and as you point out, the EH visibility is pretty much none.
The only thing in there I feel is out of place is Undisputed Ruling.
Applying Judgement is redundant with DT, Judgement and Highlord Calling.
I’d prefer if that portion was removed and that instead of a flat duration on the haste buff, it would follow Shake the Heaven window.
It would make the talent tie into the rest of tree naturally.
I like the free judgement, feels like it gives me a bit of room to prioritize other buttons after i HoL, but you’re right in that the haste should be on Shake the Heavens.
Herald gets haste per dawnlight for the duration of dawnlight. Templar should get something similar, especially with alacrity going away next patch (though i hope they walk that back)
I’m coming at this as a newer ret player so I wasn’t playing with 4 hp FV for awhile. But that play style lasted the entirety of a fight where as 5hp HoL is a short window to try and get as many as you can. I think it offers a nice little variety to offset always playing around 3hp.
Either way they need to do something, they cant leave it as is