You’ll notice I used the qualifier “feels” there, because I am talking about perception of your argument, aka I don’t know your motivations, but can only describe how it comes across to my perceptions.
As Darethy notes, the Alliance is broken before Jaina’s intervention. Additionally in Blizzards 8.1 announcement on twitch. Ion stated the Alliance had defeat snatched from the jaws of victory. The loss of Alliance troops is played to be A plot point for the entire alliance narrative, not just Anduin. It’s what causes the rupture over Darkshore, as the NEs want to strike now, which would cause the Alliance writ large to rob Peter to pay Paul.
Overall, Alliance losses at Lordaeron, the bloodgate, and elsewhere is core to the Alliance’s story.
Also, where the hell do you get the idea I don’t want to be a hero? Cause I’m pretty much fully in team cap on the Alliance’s side of things. I however try and actually care how the story effects others. I get literally everything I could ask for in 8.1, my consternation is it comes at the expense of what others want.
Again, while it may not be a great reason, the Alliance lost these cities due to game play mechanics. The Alliance just had an advantage over Horde when it came down to leveling zones.
Having Garrosh execute the orders of war was made to make him the overall arching bad guy. As Horde you were not suppose to like him just as they are doing with Sylvanas.
Having non Horde affiliated mooks destroy the cities would give the Alliance zero reason to want to defeat the Horde and Jaina doesn’t go anti-Horde. This would’ve changed story line completely in terms of having faction wars.
While I agree it would’ve have been much better, Blizzard wanted to make a faction “war” (cause BFA is the first time the factions have been at war) xpac in MoP.
Hmm maybe my post wasn’t very clear or I’m misreading yours. What I’m saying is they could’ve kept everything they were doing - rebalancing zones, villain-batting Garrosh, having the Horde destroy settlements - while showing the Alliance having similar victories either in-game or through novels.
All that matters is both sides could quest through the zone, regardless of the ending. The Alliance already won Stonetalon and Swamp of Sorrows. All they needed to do was empty or destroy a town with Alliance-only phasing.
This would defeat the purpose of balancing the resources of leveling though. They could try to explain it in a novel, but people would be very upset that it was not established in game.
I get what you’re saying, but in a PvP realm this would be such a major advantage to Horde players if they could simply go to an area that Alliance could not access.
It also would cause more confusion. Just look at Tides of War. Tides of War depicts events differently in game. It was a major point on which story was right.
Already had that with Sentinel Hill, the border between Elwynn and Redridge, and Theramore eventually. I played on a PvP server until BfA. I’'d be fine with a few more areas like that!
I don’t think Stonetalon or Swamp of Sorrows came up in novels unless I’m wrong.
Yes, regardless of numbers (and also regardless of who looses more people) a push that breaks the enemies lines can a win a battle. But Jaina did intervene, and Alliance did win, and the narrative showed that Alliance paid a price, but not that they paid a heavier price. You keep missing that showing you Alliance losses say nothing about how lost more.
My reference to being a hero was because there are some Alliance players who would have been OK with evil Jaina or an Alliance civil war, etc. instead of “evil horde”.
But if you are concerned about things being at the expense of what others want, you might consider that the Horde players got a “win” (a “win” that i would gladly trade for a Lordearon style win that you are all complains about) that only made them the villains in their own story and then put them in the plot they had said, over and over. Then, to make up for that “privilege” we apparently have to loose the rest of the battles.
Wasn’t referring to those , but just the general incidents overall. Also just because you’re okay with it doesn’t mean the overall audience will be. All it would take is for that one player to almost kill the Horde player but he phases out in the area which you can’t access and bam, post in general about Horde bias allowing Horde to have this phased out only to Alliance area.
Do…you…not know my post history?? Like, really? I think I’ve expressed sympathy for the problems of the horde playerbase plenty not just here, but elsewhere. I’ve been pretty consistent about that. I’ve pushed back on Alliance players too. Heck the reason I’ve had my one and only “enforced vacation” onthe forums was due to exactly that.
Meh. They’re already confusing. Stonetalon ends with a nuke that literally killed nobody, but its portrayed as a loss for the Alliance. Meanwhile the Horde army is dissolved by Garrosh, but the Alliance doesn’t see that. Portraying an Alliance victory in Stonetalon would actually make it less confusing.
Swamp of Sorrows already ends with a victory for whichever side you quest for iirc.
Oh well? I don’t really care about what some “HUR DUR HORDE BIAS” troll on GD says. Maybe there were tons of posts back in Cata about Sentinel Hill being filled with Horde gankers, but I wasn’t on the forums back then.
No, I don’t know your post history only what I’ve responded to. And if you say that you understand that the Horde has been screwed and have sympathy for that, who I am I to say otherwise. All I know is that it certainly wasn’t coming through in your replies to me.
Here is the thing, yes the Horde players who are not in the “yay I get to be the evul” catagory have been screwed, especially those who arnt bound up in the Orcish version of honorhorde. The added insult to injury is that this feels like a retread of Garrosh and the Horde civil war from MoP. This is totally true.
It is also true that different elements of the Alliance playerbase have also been screwed or are still getting screwed.
Night Elves: the loses that they have received, and the fact that they are currently bound up in team vengeance are setting up NEs to get crapped on again, because that need for Vengeance will never be met. This is because the Alliance will never be able to defeat the Horde, just like the Horde will never be able to defeat the Alliance.
Speaking of: SoO is considered by Horde players to be an example of the Alliance winning, the majority of the Alliance playerbase disagree, because the Horde is absolved of all wrong doing as illustrated in War Crimes. This is why you have threads like this and Hordehacker’s thread, because the Alliance is equally frustrated being the impotent victim of the Horde as much as you (rightly) are frustrated at being the Villian in your own narrative…twice now.
Does this mean I am onboard with team vengeance or the idea “Garithos did nothing wrong?” Nope. I’ve stated how much I despise WC3 for what I did to the Alliance’s narrative, and have no wish to return to that.
It also doesn’t help that SoO has been more whitewashed as time went on. Orcs were said to only be a small fraction of the actual Garrosh followers and in the aftermath it became less about moral highground and more about Varian fearing total war.
Which is yes, still a kick to the gut of Orc players, but hardly a victory over the Horde.
And, given the current direction we are headed, appears due for a repeat. Given the Alliance leadership’s stated political objective is not the dismantling of the horde, but simply the removal of Sylvanas. This is coupled with the the Alliance losses creates a dissonant effect due to the stakes having been raised to such ridiculous levels, I don’t think blizzard understands the implications of their narrative direction on the playerbase or the story writ large.
At this point unless the Horde and Alliance actively split into four distinct factions, which will never happen in a million years, there is NO way to satisfy everyone. BfA was doomed to an unsatisfactory story from day 1 and at this point we’re arguing about how to get out of this with as little pain as possible rather then actually fixing anything.
MoP becomes more and more pointless as time passes. Dalaran became functionally neutral in WoD and then canonically neutral in Legion.
BfA made Varian’s attempt at peace, even if it was to save Alliance lives, seem totally pointless. Then we found out Zoram’gar was still standing, with Horde members still there, and with enough supplies to fuel the Horde’s armies.
Many posters here will NEVER be satisfied, because they want a disproportionate amount of revenge. Currently, the “score” between Forsaken and NEs is nearly equal, at least from a meta perspective.
You gave me a good chuckle. Where was there a genocide? If I say “I want Bob’s house” and I drive Bob out of his house, killing a few of his kids in the process, and Bob and his wife swear revenge, did I GENOCIDE Bob?
Except the Forsaken were explicitly able to evacuate the vast majority of their civilian population as told through the narrative. The Kaldorei did not. Now, this does not resonate for reasons I wrote about, but the narrative, both in game and in the Novellas, show that the disproportionate loss of life was on the Kaldorei, and characters in game do consider it to be on the level of a genocide.
Saiphas that’s because the wanted sylvanas to be EEEEEVIL.
Anduin killing Civilians wouldn’t be lawful good overdrive, so they went againnst that.
Remember blizz wont let the alliance ever, ever hurt civilians, and forces them to be lawful good overdive to the point they had sylvanas destroy undercity.