Justice For The Witherbark

[Zerde-sargeras (Zerde)]

First off- the whole argument about whether proto-humans/humans beat the Amani to populate Trisfal is totally separate from the Arathi Highlands. We just got done quoting the story of how the human kingdoms formed out of them pushing trolls out of the surrounding areas and expanding.

As per Chronicles humans apperently had an establish land long before the troll wars. Whether said land was taken from the trolls is questionable at best,especially if you look at the Chronicles map there are large swaths of land not claimed by trolls. What is not in dispute is the trolls have long attacked the humans and raided them.

The witherbark were also part of the Amani empire, an empire that were enemies of Arathi since time immemoria.

But the game’s narrative and by extension, most players take it as a matter of fact that just wiping out the trolls is at worst, pragmatic, and at best, a noble endeavor for which the player is praised/rewarded in participating- while the Witherbark’s efforts to not continue being slaughtered and get back land they have recently been pushed out of has them painted as the enemy and deserving of further violent reprisals.

“Recent” is an over statement. The Arathi have ruled of Arathi highlands for 2800 thousand years.

And players take it even further by not only taking it as a matter of course, but even come up with ethical/moral justifications why the Elven slaughter of the Amani on their way to found Quel’thas is A-okay, but the Witherbark are considered to be unjustified and just evidence that it’s okay to keep killing them.

The lore specifies the Trolls attacked the high elves on sight first. So trying to put the blame on the high elves is stupid.

The worse you could blame on them is setting up shop in an old troll ruin but by the time that happened they were already enemies. If the trolls had been diplomatic enough not to attack them then maybe the high elves wouldnt have settled where they did. And even if they did at least the trolls would truly have the high ground on said conflict. As it is, they attacked the elves first and ultimately got there commapance for it.

[Tamanii-wyrmrest-accord (Tamanii)]

First off- the whole argument about whether proto-humans/humans beat the Amani to populate Trisfal is totally separate from the Arathi Highlands. We just got done quoting the story of how the human kingdoms formed out of them pushing trolls out of the surrounding areas and expanding.

As per Chronicles humans apparently had an establish land long before the troll wars. Whether said land was taken from the trolls is questionable at best,especially if you look at the Chronicles map there are large swaths of land not claimed by trolls. What is not in dispute is the trolls have long attacked the humans and raided them.

The witherbark were also part of the Amani empire, an empire that were enemies of Arathi since time immemoria.

The Troll Wars didn’t happen until thousands of years after Elves had moved into Trisfal Glades, fought with ancient humans against the Amani there and then continued up north through Amani territory to form Quel’thas.

The “Troll Wars” happened well after and were actually the (up until then) largest and most organizes offenses launched by the Amani and Zandalari in order to drive out the elves once and for all. But the elves recruited humans from the south, who’d also been killing and driving Amani out of Trisfal Glades and beyond. They launched their own counter-offensive, which ended badly for the Amani and have basically been mopping up here and there over the hundreds of years ever since.

But the game’s narrative and by extension, most players take it as a matter of fact that just wiping out the trolls is at worst, pragmatic, and at best, a noble endeavor for which the player is praised/rewarded in participating- while the Witherbark’s efforts to not continue being slaughtered and get back land they have recently been pushed out of has them painted as the enemy and deserving of further violent reprisals.

“Recent” is an over statement. The Arathi have ruled of Arathi highlands for 2800 thousand years.

Recent isn’t an overstatement. In BfA, you’re tasked with wiping out Witherbark trolls. That’s what OP’s post is about.

This conflict has been going on for over 2800 years, but it’s never been actually concluded. The trolls have been there just as long, if not longer, and have fighting and contesting the whole time. They’ve just been regularly culled and wiped out.

That the humans just have defacto “ownership” of it is not anything borne of an agreement or treaty. We’re just invited by the narrative to view it that way because one side consists of savage primitive tribes of trolls and the others are the rightful rulers, despite having no better - and likely less- claims to the land. They’re just good at killing the people on there. It’s a case of might makes right.

But it’s never framed as such.

And players take it even further by not only taking it as a matter of course, but even come up with ethical/moral justifications why the Elven slaughter of the Amani on their way to found Quel’thas is A-okay, but the Witherbark are considered to be unjustified and just evidence that it’s okay to keep killing them.

The lore specifies the Trolls attacked the high elves on sight first. So trying to put the blame on the high elves is stupid.

The worse you could blame on them is setting up shop in an old troll ruin but by the time that happened they were already enemies. If the trolls had been diplomatic enough not to attack them then maybe the high elves wouldnt have settled where they did. And even if they did at least the trolls would truly have the high ground on said conflict. As it is, they attacked the elves first and ultimately got there commapance for it.

Are you saying that attacking people who enter your lands and not being willing to sell/give them the chunks of it they want justifies your mass slaughter and resettlement over the next few hundred/thousand years?

And that the people doing the killing are not in any way shape or form guilty of anything because the others are just getting what they deserved?

Because I really do not know if you really mean that or not.

[Xamantul-ragnaros]

Neither are the Amani. They traveled east to there from Zandalar, after the Vrkul already had.

No, you’re getting wrongs facts about those Vrykuls. They were a group that followed Tyr with his other 2 friend Keepers and decided to guard his tomb after he sacrificed to wound the 2 C’thraxxis generals that were hunting his group and after many centuries those Iron-Skinned Vrykul died out and only the children they got from the Ymiron tribe survived as you can see from Paladin artifact investigation:

" At some point in Azeroth’s distant past, humanity emerged in Tirisfal Glades. The iron-skinned vrykul who lived there slowly died off. Many of them suffered from the curse of the flesh, a strange malady that transformed them into creatures of flesh and blood.

" Yet one group of vrykul lasted longer than the others. They formed a secretive group-Tyr’s Guard-to protect Keeper Tyr’s tomb. The vrykul of this order knew that they would not live forever, and so they inducted some of the fledgling humans into their ranks.

" The vrykul taught the human members of Tyr’s Guard the history of the fallen keeper, his tenets of self-sacrifice and justice, and the truth of what lay within the tomb."

Source: https://wow.gamepedia.com/Libram_of_Ancient_Kings#The_Silver_Hand

Meanwhile the Amani settle there after avenging Tyr with killing the other C’thraxxis and by the time the Vrykul group likely was on their last member and the human children came later to be used to guard the tomb.

The Witherbarks living in the Hinterlands have since happened across the Revantusks and launched many attacks against the small tribe

Ok a conflict between tribe and does that make them evil? If that’s the case then the Dwarves clans fighting each other or the human wars were also acts of evil as well in your own logic?

the Witherbarks living in Arathi Highlands have grudgingly allied themselves with the Boulderfist ogres in order to wipe out a far more hated enemy: the Horde forces who have constructed the settlement of Hammerfall.

Notice that they are fighting against invaders from a faction they have zero relantionship to keep them away from their lands.

Literally nothing bad on this unless you want people that aren’t part of your tribe/state/organization living without asking nearby of you and using your own resources that could be done to IDK maybe improving their quality of life?

The Witherbark trolls were once allies to the Horde, but they betrayed Thrall

Yea another nonsensical quest that was done to kill Trolls just like that Darkspear tribe that was living nearby of the Amani and were their enemies(despite there is zero register of Jungle Trolls in the eversong zone)

Trolls deserve to he wiped out.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DuRZMa6UwAAJHk9.jpg

As per Chronicles humans apperently had an establish land long before the troll wars.

Please read my post

The witherbark were also part of the Amani empire, an empire that were enemies of Arathi since time immemoria.

Yea by attacking them as something “to dangerous to ignore” aka wanted their lands to consolidate their power

• The tribes of early humanity raided each other’s settlements with little heed for racial unification or honor. Yet one tribe, known as the [Arathi], saw that the trolls were becoming too great a threat to ignore. The Arathi wished to bring all of the tribes under its rule so that they could provide a unified front against the troll warbands.*

Source: https://wow.gamepedia.com/Arathor_and_the_Troll_Wars

I wouldn’t bother to reply the rest of the stuff you said since you use just the half of the information(and even that shows your own argument in a bad light) but why are you often trying to argue trolls are evil?

[anon95961490]

I believe (or at least, want to hope) that this was one of the few ideas that Blizzard nixed because even they were just barely self-aware enough to see how utterly screwed-up it would be to portray the player factions as the good guys in that situation.

I thought the concept art and the idea was rad, but you’re right in that it’d be very messed up to make the player factions the good guys. I however don’t believe that factored in to Blizz decision at all. Blizzard probably just thought “Draenor would be cooler” so nixed the other idea. I mean, it’s Blizz, as you yourself said they have no problem with queaky-clean totally-justified morally-wholesome colonialism.

Anyways, I think that some of you are getting so lost in the trees of detail that you’re losing track of the forest of narrative

That’s unfortunately what always happens and it gets kinda annoying. People refuse to distinguish between lore trivia and conversation about the messaging of narratives or whatever. Just gotta roll with it.

Even the looking at the Troll Empires map in Chronicle , neither the Amani nor the Gurabashi, let alone the Drakkari, had expanded into the area that would be Dun Morogh, so even the Frostmane Tribe that gets brought up from time to time wasn’t actually trying to take back “Troll land.”

Chronicle is a source from the Titans perspective, which I think is important to keep in mind when we are taking into account multiple sources.

The Frostmane Trolls once ruled over the frigid lands of Dun Morogh, only to have their empire fall to Dwarven armies. These tribal creatures were driven to the hills in retreat – a shameful blow to their warring nature. With King Magni’s forces split between the Alliance Wars and quelling the Trogg invasion, the Frostmane Trolls have seized the opportunity to reclaim Dun Morogh in an attempt to restore the kingdom that crumbled under Dwarven might ages ago.

From the original World of Warcraft “Beastiary”

Just because the Titans maps do not have the Drakkari reaching what is now known as Dun Morogh does not mean the Frostmanes weren’t there before the Dwarves, as another source say the Frostmanes, after leaving the Drakkari, once ruled that land before the Dwarves conquered it from them.

Are you saying that attacking people who enter your lands and not being willing to sell/give them the chunks of it they want justifies your mass slaughter and resettlement over the next few hundred/thousand years?

And that the people doing the killing are not in any way shape or form guilty of anything because the others are just getting what they deserved?

Because I really do not know if you really mean that or not.

I am sure they will find some way to say “…but the Night Elf example is different because it’s stinky Orcs who deserved to be attacked first for cutting down trees. The Humans and High Elves are noble peoples that wouldn’t harm a fly.”

I do think it would be interesting to imagine a rewritten history where the Old Horde won the Second War, and humans are reduced to “savages” roaming the country side. The Orc books would say “We were but humble refugees in desperate need of a new home, and these savage mongrels attacked us on sight for having no knowledge of the Light.”

Or what about a Chronicle from the perspective of the Void Lords? Perhaps the Titans then would not look so benevolent.

[Tihoccan-azgalor]

I do think it would be interesting to imagine a rewritten history where the Old Horde won the Second War, and humans are reduced to “savages” roaming the country side. The Orc books would say “We were but humble refugees in desperate need of a new home, and these savage mongrels attacked us on sight for having no knowledge of the Light.”

Oooow! Owwww! Now that is an interesting concept! Maybe then people would realise the double standarts they’re using.

[Tamanii-wyrmrest-accord (Tamanii)]

More likely it’d be presented and interpreted it as a dark alternate timeline. One that we were very hopefully spared from.

The reason why these kinds of tropes are so common is because we all too often don’t really think about it. But we do indulge in it. We recite it. We recreate it. And we try to justify it.

[Zerde-sargeras (Zerde)]

The Troll Wars didn’t happen until thousands of years after Elves had moved into Trisfal Glades, fought with ancient humans against the Amani there and then continued up north through Amani territory to form Quel’thas.

The humans had little to no contact with the elves prior to the Troll Wars. The humans were fighting the troll but definately not with the elves until the troll war proper.

The “Troll Wars” happened well after and were actually the (up until then) largest and most organizes offenses launched by the Amani and Zandalari in order to drive out the elves once and for all. But the elves recruited humans from the south, who’d also been killing and driving Amani out of Trisfal Glades and beyond. They launched their own counter-offensive, which ended badly for the Amani and have basically been mopping up here and there over the hundreds of years ever since.

The humans were killing the amani because they kept raiding their cities and towns.

I do think it would be interesting to imagine a rewritten history where the Old Horde won the Second War, and humans are reduced to “savages” roaming the country side. The Orc books would say “We were but humble refugees in desperate need of a new home, and these savage mongrels attacked us on sight for having no knowledge of the Light.”

What a disgusting twisting of Warcraft 1 lore. It was the orcs who STRUCK FIRST AGAINST DEFENSELESS FARMERS. And even after that Llane sent ambassadors to try and negociate peace. Something the Amani never did forthe high elves.

Just because the Titans maps do not have the Drakkari reaching what is now known as Dun Morogh does not mean the Frostmanes weren’t there before the Dwarves, as another source say the Frostmanes, after leaving the Drakkari, once ruled that land before the Dwarves conquered it from them.

Or you know, that is now outdated lore. More importantly, for all we know the frost trolls attacked them first as the dwarves were trying to build their underground city.

I am sure they will find some way to say “…but the Night Elf example is different because it’s stinky Orcs who deserved to be attacked first for cutting down trees. The Humans and High Elves are noble peoples that wouldn’t harm a fly.”

The orcs were destroying the forest. Honestly, i wish Blizzard had gone though with that Troll Wars book and we can finally put to rest who is to blame for the war. One way or the other.

[anon95961490]

Or you know, that is now outdated lore.

To my knowledge no one has said it was wrong lore? It’s simply not mentioned in Chronicles, but as we now know Chronicles are a work from the Titans perspective. Perhaps the Titans simply thought it was not important enough to acknowledge.

What a disgusting twisting of Warcraft 1 lore. It was the orcs who STRUCK FIRST AGAINST DEFENSELESS FARMERS. And even after that Llane sent ambassadors to try and negociate peace. Something the Amani never did forthe high elves.

Right and I am saying it would be interesting for there to be an alternative telling which contradicts this official story. The whole discussion we are trying to have is a meta point about the way WoW, and other fantasy, story telling always makes out certain races/cultures out to be evil, and others to be good. The High Elves being refugees that establish a new home in some one elses backyard of course writes the story to make the Amani out to be as evil as possible. The story of the Orcs coming to Azeroth does the exact opposite by making the Orcs evil demon blood addicted killers.

Has anybody here ever heard of The Last Ringbearer? It’s something that always caught my eye but I never got around to reading. When I spoke of having an alternative telling of the First and Second Wars in WoW, I meant something a long those lines.

[Amadis-draka (Amadis)]

@Tihoccan-azgalor

Do you have any source that Vrykul did it before the Amani even become Amani?

@Amadis-draka

Page 63:

Despite facing hopeless odds, the keeper of justice had nearly killed both C’Thraxxi. The survivor, Kith’ix, had only narrowly fled to the west. It would not be seen again for many thousands of years.


In honor of her fallen comrade, Ironaya named the glade surrounding the crater “Tyr’s Fall,” which in the vrykul tongue translated to “Tirisfal.” She and her follower buried Tyr and his foe where they lay. They placed Tyr’s massive silver hand atop his final resting place as a memorial to his valiant sacrifice.

Although all of the refugees would carry on the story of Tyr’s noble sacrifice, the vrykul in particular felt compelled to do something more. They were so moved by the keeper’s deeds that they decided to settle at the battle site and stand vigil over Tyr’s grave until the end of their days.

So the Vrkul that would turn into humans had settled there thousands of years before the Trolls even woke Kith’ix back up, let alone hunted him down, as covered by Pages 72-73:

Meanwhile, the Amani had set out to destroy Kith’ix. They tracked the C’Thrax’s trail far to the northeastern woodlands, cutting through an unending mass of aqiri guardians. In a final savage battle, the entire tribe flung itself in a suicidal attack against Kith’ix and its remaining insectoid minions. Only a tiny fraction of the troll army survived. Even so, the C’Thrax succumbed to is tireless hunters.


Though the cost was high, the fearsome reputation of the Amani became legend among the other troll tribes. Atop the site where they had killed Kith’ix, the trolls established a new settlement. It would one day grow into a sprawling temple city known as Zul’Aman.

@Tihoccan-azgalor

Humans didn’t get land from Vrykul.

@Amadis-draka

@Tamanii-wyrmrest-accord

https://imgur.com/a/8UKInfb

May of the Dragonflayers obeyed Ymiron's brutal orders. Some, however, could not bring themselves to murder innocent children. They sought to hide their stunned offspring in a place of legend, a land far to the south where a lost clan of vrykul was said to have journeyed with Tyr, Archaedas, and Ironaya.


A number of Dragonflayers ventured south, taking their diminutive newborns in search of this fairy-tale refuge. Most were never heard from again. Both others did find their way. With heavy hearts, they left their beloved sons and daughters in the care of the vrkyul who inhabited Tirisfal.

[Drakyn-dalaran (Drakyn)]

Has anybody here ever heard of The Last Ringbearer? It’s something that always caught my eye but I never got around to reading. When I spoke of having an alternative telling of the First and Second Wars in WoW, I meant something a long those lines.

Read somewhere between a third to half of it once; it’s not terribly impossible to find online. Not an overwhelmingly well-written or subtle story (you can DEFINITELY tell it’s one of those books written by an annoyed academic), but I think it’s good that it exists.

[Caedmun-moon-guard (Caedmun)]

Have we come to terms with the “nobody gets a victim card except the Tauren, and maybe not even them because I can’t remember if they did anything bad outside of the Grimtotem doing bad things largely to the Tauren themselves” yet?

Because that argument? The “Trolls aren’t any worse than the other folks, but the narrative, and the game’s structure making them a Team Rocket of routine dungeon/raid fodder portray them in an “unfair” light (as much as that even matters).”

That argument? Sign me the fudge up. I’d like to subscribe to your news letter. Hell, that sort of analysis is one of the reasons I like this forum- anyone can read wowpedia, but lore fans look at the lore and say “but what if you look at it through THIS lens instead?” And that’s fun.

The other one we half spill into or implicitly creep in to- the Troll version of “the guys I like are the good guys and victims of the evil guys who fight them”? Yeah, no.

That argument is silly whether its coming from a meme-ish human paladin or anyone else.

…except maybe the Tauren. But I repeat myself.

[Amadis-draka (Amadis)]

It’s that they don’t really get any sympathy, and in fact get quite a bit of antipathy from the game’s narrative and much of the players.

That is the frame we are playing in. The Witherbark are not playable. If we were playing the Witherbark we would be getting silver and rewards for clearing out the other people in Arathi, same as we get now for clearing out the Witherbark.

The double standard here is your thinking the Witherbark are any more justified in their actions than anyone else is.

If that’s the case then the Dwarves clans fighting each other or the human wars were also acts of evil as well in your own logic?

Dwarves trying to kill each other off or Humans trying to kill each other off would also be considered evil, yes.

Chronicle is a source from the Titans perspective, which I think is important to keep in mind when we are taking into account multiple sources.

I acknowledged this, yes:

This is true. The maps at best show the Night Elves populating those areas before the Sundering. Chronicle doesn’t state anything about the Frostmane by name. The closest reference I can find is on page 125 with Gnomes encountering Ice Trolls five-hundred years before the Dwarves woke up

---

The Dwarves woke up five-hundred years later and met up with the Gnomes, but there’s no mention of Trolls in their section. Which isn’t to say they weren’t there or that they weren’t toppled. But rather that it didn’t seem to be notable Troll history like the Amani Troll Wars before the Dwarves woke up or the Gurubashi Civil War after.

[Tamanii-wyrmrest-accord (Tamanii)]

@Zerde-sargeras

@Tamanii-wyrmrest-accord

The Troll Wars didn’t happen until thousands of years after Elves had moved into Trisfal Glades, fought with ancient humans against the Amani there and then continued up north through Amani territory to form Quel’thas.

The humans had little to no contact with the elves prior to the Troll Wars. The humans were fighting the troll but definately not with the elves until the troll war proper.

@Tamanii-wyrmrest-accord

The “Troll Wars” happened well after and were actually the (up until then) largest and most organizes offenses launched by the Amani and Zandalari in order to drive out the elves once and for all. But the elves recruited humans from the south, who’d also been killing and driving Amani out of Trisfal Glades and beyond. They launched their own counter-offensive, which ended badly for the Amani and have basically been mopping up here and there over the hundreds of years ever since.

The humans were killing the amani because they kept raiding their cities and towns.

The Highborned were exiled some seven thousand years before WoW’s current events. They encountered humans when they first arrived in the Trisfal region, who were already fighting each other and the local trolls. Elves stayed out of it, at least until hey detected even more potent leyline energies further north. They left the area and traveled north through Amani territory to found Quel’thalas.

Then four thousand years passed, during which time, humans had moved out of Trisfal and into what’s now the Arathi Higlands and founded Arathor. Given that the Amani also claimed Trisfal and pretty much all of northern half of the eastern continent, they didn’t get Arathi Highlands and surrounding lands just by asking nicely.

It was during one of their campaigns against the Amani that they learned about a combined Zandalari/Amani campaign to wipe Quel’thalas off the map. Humans and Elves finally teamed up, and the actual Troll Wars spoken of.

The war saw the Amani essentially shattered into a bunch of lesser tribes all trying to keep a hold of where they were, and for thousands of years since, they’ve been getting slaughtered little by little until today.

You can see it reflected in the subsequent maps, where Human/Elf settlements get bigger and bigger, while the area held by the Amani gets smaller and smaller.

That’s why when you go questing in a lot of these lands in the Eastern Kingdoms, you’re still tasked with taking out lingering pockets of forest troll tribes. These are all that’s left of the Amani empire, and they’re still fighting.

And as OP mentioned, the quest in the Arathi Highlands to wipe out the Witherbark is a continuation of that centuries long history of eradicating/displacing trolls and not have to worry about being attacked by trolls because the trolls don’t like being eradicated/displaced and want their lands back.

[anon95961490]

Not an overwhelmingly well-written or subtle story (you can DEFINITELY tell it’s one of those books written by an annoyed academic), but I think it’s good that it exists.

I wonder how much of that would have to do with the way it’s actually written or just the way its translated? Either way I guess that makes sense because it sounds pretty straight forward in its premise.

The other one we half spill into or implicitly creep in to- the Troll version of “the guys I like are the good guys and victims of the evil guys who fight them”? Yeah, no.

Sometimes you gotta fall back into this memery just for the fun of it, because it’s the forums. I do wish we got more articulated people coming at it from the other angle tho… but alas I guess WoW Lore ain’t worth the effort?

That is the frame we are playing in.

That’s the point though. It’s the framing in which we must play the game that has the double standard, not our thinking.

[Amadis-draka (Amadis)]

It’s the framing in which we must play the game that has the double standard, not our thinking.

I do not disagree with you that the framing has double standards.

I do not agree with your overlooking that if the frame was from the Witherbark point of view it would also have that exact same double standard.

[Caedmun-moon-guard (Caedmun)]

A bit on dwarven history, since, you know, personal interest.

Dwarves totally marginalized the Frostmane. There’s lore stating the trolls were in those mountains, and the dwarves, probably boiling up out of the freakin’ ground, wrecked their crap. Granted, the lore source refers to the Frostmane as “Warlike”, but we don’t get a lot of specifics on what that entails.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/The_World_of_Warcraft_Townhall/Beastiary#Frostmane_Troll

Now, who was first UNDER the mountain? Well, that’s a different conversation. We shouldn’t see things through the bias of the pro-surface agenda! Rabble rabble rabble!

EDIT: I can see you posting Tamanii! Hurry up so I can look at more purdy pictures.

[anon95961490]

One of these days I need to make a Justice For The Gurubashi post.

[Tamanii-wyrmrest-accord (Tamanii)]

It’s that they don’t really get any sympathy, and in fact get quite a bit of antipathy from the game’s narrative and much of the players.

That is the frame we are playing in. The Witherbark are not playable. If we were playing the Witherbark we would be getting silver and rewards for clearing out the other people in Arathi, same as we get now for clearing out the Witherbark.

The double standard here is your thinking the Witherbark are any more justified in their actions than anyone else is.

And for clearing out the other people in Arathi, you’re supposed to feel bad because the war is a sham concocted by Sylvanas that pits us against one another for her own benefit and you’re taking orders from her right hand man who is clearly supposed to be evil. Well at least if you play Horde at least.

But yeah, I do think the Horde and Alliance are as accountable to the Witherbark for what they’ve done to them during the war as the Horde is to the Alliance and Night Elves in particular. Or as accountable as the Alliance are to Vulpera.

I don’t think they’re MORE justified. I think they’re at the very least AS justified. But the game and apparently players clearly don’t agree and seek out reasons why nobody should feel accountable for it. About why everyone is justified for all the terrible stuff they do except the trolls.

How would the thread have gone if OP has asked for justice for a number of human villages who’d been fighting for independence from the kingdom of Stromgarde? Villages that we get tasked to wipe out because they refused to join the Horde/Alliance.

[Caedmun-moon-guard (Caedmun)]

One of these days I need to make a Justice For The Gurubashi post.

Do it. Here’s fodder for the guns.

Early history

The kingdom of Stormwind was originally founded 1,200 years before the First War by the descendants of the Arathi bloodline, who had migrated south from the nation of Arathor. Traveling past the rocky mountains of Khaz Modan, their journey finally ended after many long seasons, and they settled in the northern region of the continent they would name Azeroth. In a fertile valley, they founded the kingdom of Stormwind, which quickly became a self-sufficient power in its own right. It had a long and prosperous history, with the king served loyally by the knights of the Brotherhood of the Horse and the clerics of the Holy Order of Northshire Clerics. Secretive conjurers also served the kingdom, and as such Stormwind Keep had its own court conjurer.

The constant bickering and infighting that marred the rules of the former kings of Arathor had no place in the court of Wrynn, and all had been peaceful for many generations in the kingdom until the Gnoll War. King Barathen Wrynn ended the conflict by scattering the unified gnoll packs and bringing back peace, solidifying the rule of the Wrynn dynasty over the entire kingdom.

Following the Gnoll War, the Kingdom of Stormwind began expanding its borders, much to the displeasure of the Gurubashi tribes. A series of smaller conflicts between the two factions erupted over time, largely over the territories bordering Stranglethorn Vale that Stormwindian settlers began expanding into. Though initially isolated, the conflict quickly escalated out of control, despite the best efforts of Stormwind’s King Barathen Wrynn. The final provocation came when Prince Llane Wrynn personally led a small party to strike at the Gurubashi leadership in central Stranglethorn, which succeeded in uniting the trolls against Stormwind. Though costly and close-run, the human kingdom eventually emerged victorious, largely due to the intervention of the Guardian Medivh. With the entire troll army completely destroyed or routed at the gates of Stormwind City, the jungle trolls of the south would never succeed in threatening the kingdom again. This bloody conflict was known as the Gurubashi War, and the Stormwindians enjoyed nearly two decades of relative peace after emerging victorious. King Barathen was one of the casualties of the Gurubashi War, and Llane succeeded him as king in the aftermath of the war.[[10]](https://wow.gamepedia.com/Stormwind_City#cite_note-10)

TLDR: Humans came south from Arathi. Lived pretty chill for a while. Expanded. Ran into Gurubashi. WAAAAAAGHH! Medivh blows them the hell up. With magic.

…seems familiar.

[Tihoccan-azgalor]

That is still weird because curse of flesh was meant to happen after troll empires were established.
It doesn’t deny that Amani had actual hold over these lands, it could’ve been small enclave within Amani territories with which trolls didn’t bother with as trolls actually can co-exist with others. Just like with Valajar and Nelf empire.

It only shows that humans are in fact immigrants, and they pressed into troll territories hence troll attacks.

I don’t see it as valid point to claim that entire Tirisfal territory didn’t belong to Amani (it did according to maps) just becuase there were some vrykul at Tyr’s Fall. Would Ashenvale belong to the Horde just because there is Zoram’gar settlement at the beach?

And I see this argument as a way to invalidate Amani claims to the land that they owned, Maps shown where their territories were spanning until humans came. Before and After Saundering.