How do you know?
The Dwarves didn’t move into Dun Morogh a few years ago.
They have have been there for hundreds of years probably. May be much longer.
its pretty ignorant to pretend we know everything.
All we know is that there are trolls in those mountains and they are hostile.
“The Frostmane Trolls once ruled over the frigid lands of [Dun Morogh], only to have their empire fall to [Dwarven] armies. These tribal creatures were driven to the hills in retreat – a shameful blow to their warring nature. With King [Magni]'s forces split between the [Alliance] Wars and quelling the [Trogg] invasion, the Frostmane Trolls have seized the opportunity to reclaim Dun Morogh in an attempt to restore the kingdom that crumbled under Dwarven might ages ago.”
“Emerging from their Titan-homes, the dwarves from Uldaman made their way out of the Titan city and eventually built [Ironforge]”
Maybe this was retconned with the Chronicles but I am not aware of it.
Yeah exactly. Sounds like the criteria to me. Orcs moved to a new land, came into conflict with natives, and utterly defeated them. To make sure no one like Khazlei feels bad about it those natives were unreasonably EVIL, so it was fine to kill them and take their land.
Except the Trolls have been in the Eastern Kingdoms region longer than the 3000 year old Dwarves race. There’s no date on when the Frostmsne/Winterax got kicked out of the North true. But Zul Drak is old, and I highly doubt those two tribes only got kicked out <3000 years ago.
There were no major occupants in Khaz Modan, the Wetlands, or Twilight Highlands. The Bronzebeards didn’t HAVE to settle the only region on the continent suitable for Ice Trolls, but they did anyway. And it’s not like the Wildhammer and Dark Iron aren’t in constant conflict with the Vilebranch and Smolderthorn/Firetree as well, because of their land choices.(Tribes which have been in the area much longer than the Frostmane no doubt, and whom no one cares about either lol)
Ok… so the trolls were there first.
I am not sure what the point is here.
What is the purpose of your post and thread? Just discussing lore history or something different?
I mean discussing lore yeah and opinions on it… what is any other thread on this forum for??
Big thanks to Khazlei because i actually learned a little something too so i’m glad i made this thread
I’m not the OP, just a poster with a perspective on the way the Frost Trolls of Dun Morogh got the short end of the stick.
Usually happens when you lose a conflict.
it does say in Chronicles that something seemed to draw the dwarves to Dun Morogh. So it implies it wasnt an 100% intentional decision to chose that place. Which coincides with old RPG lore that stated there was a titan facility/relic in Dun Morogh (and thus the land belonged to the titanforged first)
Even then, no matter where they want, there would be occupants, troggs, kobolds etc.
And its not like the Frostmane were friendly, chronicles states that the gnomes awakened first, and like the dwarves years later, were somehow drawn towards Dun Morogh, and as soon as they ventured into the more western reaches of Dun Morogh, were attacked, killed (and probably eaten) by savage barbaric trolls.
Honestly I highly doubt the Frostmane’s had a proper ‘empire’ that spanned Dun Morogh as we see no ruins anywhere. Judging from how they were described and how we see them in game, the Frostmane trolls were probably much more primal and anamalistic, like early cavemen but with a very unltr-violent warlike nature. They probbaly lived and survived in deep secluded mountain caves and such (much like the norwegian creatures of myth they are based on)
Interestingly enough, Chronicles makes no mention of the dwarves ever encountering trolls when venturing into Dun Morogh or creating Ironforge
In which half the thread is about the propaganda style nature of colonialism and how messed up it is.
Losing a conflict? You mean getting kicked out of your home and treated like a pest infestation by the people who did the kicking when you protest?
Very few of the stories in Chronicles even mention the Trolls if they can help it. Trolls only come up when some race or other gets into a war with them that ends with the race taking new land and the Trolls pushed out.
so the trolls were there first.
Except they werent, the titan forged were.
You could argue it in the way that…say your parents built a house. You left for a while, moved out, lived someplace else, and a few years later, came home, and found out that your parents have disappeared and creepy homeless people have broken in and are squatting in your attic. When you move back in you find said people and try to ask them who they are, but they attack you and try to kill you for invading their family home.
If it makes no mention of it then it was not really retconned, its just up in the air so I am gonna lean back on the other lores sources for this. As for ruins maybe the Dwarves destroyed them all? The Frostmane are reduced to living in caves and small villages in the snow, we have no idea what it looked like before hand.
This analogy isn’t similar at all. The flesh-cursed earthen, i.e. the dwarves, never lived in those lands before. It’s more like me and my family totally abandon my house, move away for centuries, then our progeny decide they are gonna go back and claim a home they themselves never lived in by violently seizing it from the current occupants.
Yeah but the Titanforged weren’t a mortal RACE. They were programming bound Titan servitors. Mass manufactured in the Forge of Wills. Titan architecture are a series of _scientific facilities _, not settlements that people call home. They didn’t do mortal things or think about stuff other than guarding the research materials they were made to guard.
Not entirely true, while Titanforged are programmed to have a base directive, we know they have a semblance of free will, they had communities (even towns and cities), individual personalities, feelings, systems of governments with their own Kings, families, they could even make their own decisions regarding their fate
We even have examples of such in game with all the Earthen we see from Uludar to the ones in Deepholm, we see it in the Iron Rune dwarves and as well such things are stated in Chronicles
Its how humanity has worked since civilization was first concieved of in the middle-east to around 1945.
Now days you can’t just conquer your neighbors anymore.
You do it with treaties and economic pressures.
I always assumed it was because they were made for mountain excavation and what not.
The fact that chronicles never mentions the dwarves ‘taking’ troll land or fighting trolls to make a home leads me to believe that the Dwarves just…moved into Dun Morogh unopposed, started making Ironforge, and only after then, when they began to spread out and explore more of Dun Morogh, only then did they run into the trolls, who due to their primitive warlike nature, and just like they did with the gnomes, probably attacked on sight.
Folks have to keep in mind the game world is a shrunk down representation, in lore Dun Morogh is huge and would take many days to get from one side to the other, if not more than a week. The Frostmane were a tiny tribe, there is no way they lived in and occupied the entire mountain range. Due to their tribes weakness and small numbers they probably got by living in caves. Honestly I wouldnt even be surprised if the trolsl and dwarves didnt even know eachother lived in the same mountains until well after Ironforge’s construction.
But the Vrykul are NOT the metal and stone servants of the Titans their progenitors were. There is also no true timeline given for the time when enough of the Titanforged had suffered the Curse to start forming mortal communities. I’m also not aware of any place where the TITANFORGED have any presence beyond Ulduar or Odyn’s halls. They obviously wouldn’t have built places like Gjalerbron if they hadn’t already lived and died like mortals.
The Earthen that didn’t become Dwarves clearly were better at the whole getting along with others thing, considering their enemies are stone troggs and corrupted Loken servants. Not the mortal races. Lastly, the Earthen that became Dwarves slept. They spent many millennia holding an actionless vista over a defunct research site. Maybe there’s some argument to be had over their right to an area they never developed at all and only happened to be posted to. But their origin even indicates they’d forgotten their Earthen origins when they emerged from their slumber. They didn’t learn this until Wrath of the Lich King when Brann went to Ulduar!
When did I ever mention Vrykul? I was talking specifically about the Earthen and Iron Rune Dwarves. All of who, in game and in chronicles have been shown to have their own system of government, societies, personalities, separate family and clan systems, towns, cities, even shopkeepers, merchants and the like. And have made their own conscience decisions.
So you cant say they were mindless robots who just followed preset functions. Even teh Titan Keepers were just ‘robots’ built and programmed to follow a certain function but they are all self aware, have a degree of free will, feel emotions, have personalities, have families, grieve, feel loss, even fall in love. The same goes for the Earthen.
But anyways, I think we are getting off topic with this whole 'are titanforged mindless robotos topic xD