Justice for the Frostmane tribe

Lore Story Forum
103

The Iron Rune Dwarves/giants are all servants of Loken, and so are pretty bad. And even taking that as nothing but a minor detail, the Iron Runed themselves only occupy Northrend, and are noticably not noted to have any real contact with the Drakkari, despite both factions having forces in Grizzly Hills.

The Earthen again, only occupy either Titan facilities or have settlements so far from Trolls as to be laughable.

The Dwarves have been in Dun Morogh now for many years, if they haven’t found any Titan facilities in the area yet, it’s pretty clear the Earthen didn’t have any presence in the zone before the Frostmane moved in.

Yeah, it’s pretty clear many of the Titanforged do have free will, but only the Earthen seemed to have made use of it to build anything without having the Curse of Flesh forced upon them.

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104

I think you’re reading comprehension is a tad off (dont know why drakkari were even mentioned) All I was saying in the last few direct replies was me just providing evidence that titanforged had free will to counter the post in which you claimed they were all mindless robots. Thats it, It had nothing to do with the entirely separate Dun Morogh ownership argument

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105

Well I am trying to keep things on topic whilst arguing two things at once, so that’s on me. All the same, the points tie together. I concede that many of the Titan made constructs do have free will, but I also argue that it’s irrlevant because there’s no evidence of Titan presence in Dun Morogh, and so the question of land rights between Troll and Dwarf doesn’t need to take that into account.

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106

Thats fair enough, only thing I can thyink of that might suggest otherwise is the old tabletop RPG stated there was a titan facility in Dun Morogh that housed a relic (known as The Iron Forge, later renamed to the Great Anvil) and that was what drew the dwarves there

BUT

thats old tabletop rpg lore and thus falls into the abyss of “we dont know if this is cannon anymore”

107

Yes, other races and cultures did wage war on the various trolls to conquer their land. That is obvious, it’s how the high elves, night elves and humans came to live in their current lands. However, to my knowledge, there is no evidence that the troll empires lived in total peace until the other races started fighting them.

The Gurubashi trolls practically destroyed themselves, waging constant war among themselves until they were all weaker for it. They bullied and cannibalized smaller tribes, and basically forced the Darkspear to flee from their homelands. The Amani continued to fight the humans and elves for centuries, despite knowing that they were much weaker.

Honestly, the only troll empires that did well for themselves were the Zandalari, who were completely unopposed in their lands but still fell to an internal corruption (See: Zul’s rebellion and the scheming of Rakastan’s advisors), and the Drakkari. The Drakkari were a powerful empire in Northrend, tied in power to the Nerubians as superpowers in Northrend, and they did VERY well for themselves until Arthas turned his attention to them.

The thing that is important to remember is that the Amani (who are the main tribe in constant warfare with other races) are still around. The humans and the elves defeated them, and then saw it fit to basically say “You stay away from our stuff and we’ll stay away from your stuff”. There are still troll villages scattered around Lordaeron, Zul’Aman is still a standing city. The troll, faced with a MUCH stronger foe, could have chosen to accept the terms and rebuild. But they didn’t, they decided to constantly raid the countryside and hold onto the desire to reclaim ALL their land one day. And where has that led them? They live in ruins, most of their fighting population is set off to fight for this baseless dream of one day winning back territory they haven’t controlled in centuries, and their culture has stagnated.

Regardless of how you look at it, the trolls would be better off to find a way to live in peace with their neighbours, even if those neighbours are massive pricks. The Zandalari have good relations with the Vulpera and Tortollen, they trade with various cultures across Azeroth, and they are stronger for it. The Amani and Gurubashi, they cling to the memories of being grand empires and became spiteful and xenophobic as a result.

I am not saying that the trolls deserve what they got; they are clearly victims here, but they don’t need to remain that way. They could have picked themselves back up, fortified the lands they did control, and found some way to live in this new world. They choose not to, and that has meant the doom of their race.

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108

No idea what you’re on about.

Came to a new land and aided a race who was being hunted like sport (not even for resources or land claims). Not sure I’d say utterly either, but defeated, certainly.

Again, I haven’t seen evidence that Mulgore was Centaur land.

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109

I think she may be more referring to the Quilboar and Harpies who lived in Durotar before they got curbstomped by the orcs

110

My post was only about the Centaur. Weird to be referring to the Quilboar and Harpies.

111

I have to note here the Gurubasi waged that war in an attempt to reunify the jungle Trolls. The Empire had been broken by both the Kaldorei and the later Sundering. They WERE foolish in that their means to try and take back some of what they lost included supplementary power provided by a certain bloodthirsty Loa named Hakkar. Also notable is that they eventually fell into civil war BECAUSE they noticed he was too demanding and has a number of their people under thrall.

The Gurubashi did make a bad move trusting Hakkar, but by all means point to me another Loa that would have brought as much ruin as he did to trust. I’m more inclined to believe this was a result of his influence, which persists in the Gurubashi to this day if you pay attention to world quests.

Also, I will note that the Jungle Trolls are the ONLY kind to have a source mention any tribes do more to each other than scattered raids. In every other case, Trolls who dislike each other play bloody politics or exile smaller groups from the main tribe.

Also, I love Trolls, but you make great points too. I know Trolls have plenty of problems stemming from pride like you said, but that stubborn pride is also one of their most interesting traits to me! And well, the Horde is a great example of how far a single Troll tribe can rise when they cooperate with other races. This is why I get disappointed whenever quest dialogue mentions other tribes who reject diplomatic contact with the Horde(Drakkari in Grizzly Hills, Witherbark in Arathi)

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114

Not certain about robbed, likely those trolls caused trouble to the neighbors.

115

having the land that you have lived on and developed your culture around for generations violently seized from you is robbery in my book.

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116

Why are people saying that trolls were first. Chronicles volume was released like 4 years ago.

Titanforged were there before trolls, and trolls only exist thanks to the Well of Eternity. Titanforged are made by azeroth materials itself, heck “The Speaker” of Azeroth is a dwarf.

Trolls and elves came after titanforged, and without them Azeroth would be oldgod land, or elemental land.

117

[Insert analogy to middle east here]

118

I’d ask you to kindly read Khazleis replies she makes real good points. you can’t really just equate the titan forged with the modern races who colonized troll lands.
its not about whether the titans were there first or not but which mortal race settled certain lands first. the titan forged remained largely in the titan facilities and it is their flesh cursed progeny who decided to began taking over troll lands, in rather violent ways too.

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119

Look, I’d be a hypocrite, as an orc fan, if I said it was evil to invade and take over other peoples’ lands on Azeroth. Sure, it’s always better to go for diplomacy and coexistence first. But when push comes to shove you gotta do what’s best for your people and nobody else, because they’d do just the same in your position. If we just stuck to what mortal race inhabited where first then the orcs would be wiped out, the Darkspear would be wiped out, and the tauren would be wiped out. Hell, blood elves and goblins too.

One of the Horde’s foundational themes was being forced to make their own path, against the world’s established powers, just to exist and survive. If my family was starving and there was nothing I could do about it, you can bet I would be breaking into the nearest supermarket to feed them.

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120

this is true and i have no problem with it. i just think what happened to the trolls was a little different.

121

Maybe. But it’s worthwhile to remember that, originally, the titanborn were just as dwindling and homeless. I don’t know enough about the Frost Trolls to speak to that specific circumstance, but in general I don’t think the humans, high elves and night elves were necessarily wrong for claiming troll land (I mean, it’s not like they had anywhere uninhabited to claim). Then again, the dwarves have a nasty track record of being significantly more brutal in their expansionism than any other Titanborn race, so what do I know?

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122

i just find it funny that the story guilt trips us over what happened to storm wind and all that jazz but paints it as perfectly reasonable what happened to the trolls like the frost mane.

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123

The difference on whether or not they’re treated with dignity and compassion is how pretty Blizzard thinks the race is. Just look at any lore tragedy involving orcs, undead, goblins, gnomes…

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