Just watched the datamined cutscene with aduin and bolver...ugh!

The way Bolvar talks about Sylvanas and the way her val’kyr steal Anduin away so easily is very annoying. Especially when you see the same chains that seemed to so easily and magically bind the lich king himself. I loved Sylvanas pre-cata but now? she’s just an unbeatable “chess master” due to the fact that other characters are literally written to be utter imbeciles to make her look like a gEniUs. At this point, I’m so tired of her and her plot armor.


I’m sorry, but if Anduin broke out of the same chains that completely locked down Bolvar, and tripped up the Night Warrior, that would be far more plot armor than what you’re suggesting Sylvanas has here. She also was never at any point in BfA put in a position that would have actually put her at risk, outside of the WoT (where she still had enough Val’kyr for an auto-revive, and she was juicing on Death to keep pace with Malf).

Sylvanas’ greatest superpower has always been “Plot Convenience” and not “Plot Armor”. Characters looking the other way at convenient times whenever she does something shady, or characters and factions are forced into being convenient for her personal narrative. Its not that she’s miraculously saved from instances of conflict with some BS thing, but more miraculously she’s able to avoid conflict alltogether unless she outs herself.


Bolvar is making claims here about Sylvanas and her plans/motives after he just admitted he was wrong about her plans and motives.

This is not the first cutscene where Blizzard used other characters to misdirect the audience about Sylvanas’s goals, remember homecoming and Thunder Bluff burning?

It also makes no sense, if all Sylvanas wanted was temporal power she already had that. Bolvar’s logic is faulty.


yawn just more Sylvanas fanboy defenders ready to come to the aid of their waifu. It gets old and I shouldn’t be surprised given the history of my fellow horde posters on this particular forum. I still can’t see what they do in Sylvanas.


You think Horde players still like Sylvanas in the majority? She ruined their faction irreparably.


I agree that Anduin should not have been able to break through the chains that bound Bolvar but the fact that they bound the lich king so definitely and he was unable to escape them or fight against them at was soooo cringe. Even still “plot convenience” is BS all the same as a matter of fact it almost sounds like mincing words. Why should one character be allowed so much a handicap vs near literal demi-gods? because she’s “fappable”?


Hey, someone gets it! I however I can’t help but be naively optimistic about Voss (and I “could” see some use for Calia, if she’s given the right growth and restrictions). I’ve always liked Lil, and figured her end destination as a character would eventually lead her to where she is. Even if Blizz decided to completely and lazily skip all the important middle parts of that transition.

The Horde Council does conceptually comprise a group of people that could truly do wonders for the faction and their respective races. Most of them are also super hard to villain bat, even Geya-rah (who is the survivor of a largely successful cultural genocide; and she’s shown to be learning from the Horde in small ways). The issue is most of them are staggeringly underdeveloped, underused, and underpowered. And with Blizz’s track record…


Yes, I want Lillian Voss as the next forsaken “leader” Given her character arc. She was raised at deathknell like the PC and had to deal with what she is despite what she was in life. She was given free will and has done the most with it.

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The problem I have is the same dead horse we’ve been beating for months, how do you walk back genocide? It’s a tricky situation and the only reason they’re getting away with it is Shadowlands distracting everyone. They might not have wanted it, the players might not have wanted it but the fact is it happened and without any attempt at making amends, however impossible it might be to truly do, it really comes off like they got away with it. I’d be happy if it was properly addressed as the Alliance’s next story arc with Anduin being too soft to lead as they seem to be indicating and they show the Horde at least trying to make up for what happened even if their aid is rejected. Have the Alliance be the actually morally grey and partially justified bad guy for a change.


I don’t think you’re going to enjoy much of Shadowlands from this point forward :neutral_face:

Did you read Shadows Rising? The Horde feels really, really badly. Like really badly. What more do you want?

Oh yeah, no Sylvanas did it all /yawn.


Is that sarcastic? What you described is about as much value as any other virtue signalling. I could rob a house and say I feel bad but does it matter if I keep their stuff?


(Commentary): I think the cutscene would’ve worked better if the last leader they focused on was Tyrande, and we saw her utterly destroying the Forsworn to really show off her power, and then a messenger arrives and informs her that Anduin, Jaina, Thrall, and Baine had been abducted. That way, no individual leader is made to look stupid; instead their abductions are left to our imaginations. What’s more, Tyrande gets to come off looking strong, and the Night Elves need every tiny victory they can get right now.


Definitely sarcastic. The Horde Council is pathetic.

Teldrassil was narrative poison because no matter what happens now it will always be a point of pain, it doesn’t matter what happens to Sylvanas or the Horde or what punishments they get. For example I think its obnoxious and absurd that the Horde player gets moralized to about Teldrassil if they choose the Ardenweald covenant. The fact that the story has made it necessary is poor form on Blizzard’s part.

But it’s made worse by the fact that in-universe the Horde is completely let off the hook because DAE Sylvanas is teh evul?

For all we know Sylvanas was replaced by Varimathras in Legion and now Thrall, Anduin, Jaina and Baine are all also Dreadlords.

That’s the level of comic book writing I expect from Blizzard. Not more moralistic nihilism wallowing in misery and genocide that the story forums have done for the last two years. Enough is enough.


This would of been better.


Every expansion spawns threads of people complaining that the villain doesn’t feel threatening enough, that it’s not doing enough, that it’s not wrecking cities. We constantly have threads here suggesting that an expac should end with us losing.

When a villain actually gets something done, now it’s “plot armor?” What the hell are you people talking about?


(Observation): There was nothing about the abduction scene that made the Forsworn seem even remotely threatening. All the cut scene accomplished was to push suspension of disbelief to the breaking point, and give some deservedly jaded souls a sour chuckle.


Welcome to warcraft?


I think the Forsworn are threatening, it’s the series of events with Anduin and Genn that comes across as comical. And the whole thing starts off poorly with Bolvar whining and talking in completely nonsensical generically threatening language because if he actually said anything meaningful it would give away WTF Sylvanas is even doing or what the Jailor is up to but we aren’t even meant to know those things yet.

Overall it’s not a very well-constructed cinematic, so that’s 0 for 2 from the Blizz cinematic team after the N’zoth defeat cinematic letdown. I know they can do better than this, and probably will when the story of Shadowlands gets going properly. I hope they haven’t let the fawning sycophancy of content creators go to their heads.




I liked the part where they showed Tyrande fighting them off

Nope instead we get Princess Peach kidnapped by bowser.