I’m sure it’s been said a million times in this thread, but “just ignore the timer” doesn’t mean you go afk for 30 minutes halfway through the dungeon.
It just means that you don’t have to do MDI style pulls to time keys.
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Actually I ignore my times and I’m doing 17s, so…
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An enrage timer is an encounter timer. A M+ timer is an encounter timer. In my eyes, there is no functional difference between asking for the removal of M+ timers and asking for the ability to pause bosses to wait for CDs in the middle of a pull. No timer in M+ means no challenge. No need for risky pulls, just lucky charms the danger out of every pack. I’m once again requesting a hard pass.
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Raiding was always about waiting for cds between pulls. There are even famous examples of it from back in the day. Swapping mains or warlock alts sitting outside providing soulstones every pull.
Now, if you kill a boss or wipe, it resets your major cds and even removes blood-lust debuff so you can lust again.
If you told a player they can have a 278 for timing a +2 but if they just spent 2-3hrs in a 15 with enough patience, cc and cheesing they could have a 304 or whatever, I’m sure a not insignificant amount of players would be in there for 100 deaths/few hours to do it.
I know this for a fact, because in some raiding guilds they actually share their 15 keys around so that everyone can get vault. And some groups don’t have the best of the best players so you get these ridiculous slog runs.
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So, court of stars, then.
Sentries, alarms, profession-based triggers to summon adds that when killed make the next boss easier. Then before the final boss you have to solve a puzzle that can change every run (or just have a prot Paladin)
I think the real question is why would you need higher ilvl gear attained from higher keys in m+ if you aren’t doing content that requires it?
I know this isn’t your argument, but its always been a question I wanted an answer to when one does make the argument about the timer.
Why you’re changing the definitions around to try to make an argument, after i told you why it’s wrong to think these are the same thing and proved it’s not the same thing?
Why this fact must be continued to be denied? 
You’re gonna have to tell me how it’s the same thing without using your subjective opinion or “What you see in your eyes”… Just saying.
So you’re admitting this is just you giving your subjective opinion here.
Not to be that sort, but if you start it off with that, i can’t be expected to follow as if it could potentially be factual since what you see (Or want to see more accurately) is subjective. Plus, were just going over most of the stuff i’ve already refuted, so…
Well you’re not forced to play it, so i don’t see how it effects you. It’s just another mode to play. I don’t play (outside of World PvP) PvP and don’t enjoy it all that much, that doesn’t mean i want it gone or any more suggestions for it to not happen. Even if it’s something trite like a Battle Royale mode, doesn’t effect me. I’l just play on Warmode and let them have their fun. I’m not going to try to control what they can’t play by saying “Oh nobody will play this”. 
I mean that sort of argument right there, just smacks me of Allen Brack’s “You think you do, but you don’t” attitude. Meanwhile in the real world, Classic is on Wrath, and it’s all because it’s loved by gamers (Who asked for it mind), which in turn, a success for Blizzard. The most ironic thing in all of this to the people who try to talk about what’s good for Blizzard in terms of business wise, when something like that is a success…
Side rant: Can the GD stop this thing with being an armchair businessperson already? I mean it’s already soulless behavior coming from a gamer that’s talking about in favor of a corporation (that doesn’t even know you exist by the by, and not your friend) getting more money, and instead just be playing/talking about this games as GAMES…
…but nobody here, including me, knows how they actually operate. It just makes the argument whatever it is, just silly and nonsensical.
For bosses, yes. Which bewilders me that these people act like this is going to be an absolute bad thing when they are fine with it in raiding.
For each mob, no. Unless you’re that meta/minmaxer.
I do agree something like this shouldn’t happen again, but i don’t think that’s what their suggesting what will happen.
…Making the "People will wait for lust/CD"s complaint bit even more sillier, not even accounting the travel time in between.
2 - 3 hours might be a bit much. I was kind of looking at 90 minutes to 2 hours at most.
Granted, 2 - 3 hours would be for a mega dungeon like Blackrock depths.
I mean, having patience is a part of skill.
Court of Stars is “search for clues, look at the NPC who is wearing those things and find them”.
Yes, paying attention around your surroundings and use them to your advantage when the opportunity presents itself.
Change it’s position or what kind of puzzle it is, as well what you need to do, sure. As along it’s not completely randomized in everything that is.
You could design a game mode for every single person in the game, but chopping up the player base like that is going to make it more difficult for evety individual. As it is, the player pool for M+ is pretty strong. Make an easier mode and you lose some of that pool. Introduce 40 new 5 player modes and all of a sudden it takes a week to find a group for M+. The sub population isn’t so massive that it can spare players for all your game modes.
Also, you can call it subjective all you want, you still haven’t shown me or described a game mode that is made easier for having a timer on it. Until then, I’ll continue to believe that the timer is what makes M+ challenging.
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“Too many systems” “Too many system” we heard all expansion. Now what do they want? More systems.
Because raid trash doesn’t progressively get harder and harder over 30 difficulties.
And as mentioned, the raid boss is the encounter and the raid trash is filler. In m+, the whole dungeon is the encounter as that’s how they designed it (hence affixes on trash + trash % req + timer still counting if you kill final boss but haven’t got your trash %)
Also, trash gets lusted a lot. Not because it needs to be, but because you can reset the cd by resetting bosses.
You’ve been lucky then lol. I’ve seen plenty of fun groups in heroic guilds…
Ugh. Of coarse you pull that trite argument… 
If we have to keep in mind for not chopping up the player base, we wouldn’t be past Vanilla in terms of ANYTHING. Everything would just be the same, no variety. Infact, this very same argument would likely be used against M+ or in favor of removing it, because by your logic, it “chops the playerbase”. And yet you’re in favor of the M+, but giving this TERRIBLE argument.
Not to mention, this just another variation of “You think you do, but you don’t” when it was proven Wrong atfer Classic came out and was a success. Infact, that reminds me of a phrase i occasionally say… 
Not to dive into food comparisons, but this quote was first said by the company who made the prego sauce, which they made more then one pasta sauce to appeal to every, if not most people with different flavors. The same can be absolutely said with video games and the features they put.
Nobody has ever said “Let’s make an easier mode”. Continuing on this misconception would just making discussing about this topic difficult by your design here.
Population doesn’t matter when you’re adding game modes. Otherwise, Legion wouldn’t happen because by your logic, the sub pop isn’t massive at the time, so why have legion?
Again, just another “You think you do, but you don’t” you’re giving me here. Which i’m more convinced at this point that you’re just being closed minded for the sake of it and perceiving this as a threat or useless, over the most silliest of reasons you can grab. And i say that’s a bad attitude to foster, because that again… leads to campaigning the removal of YOUR MODE.
What, do you not think ANY of the arguments you used can be used against you or your mode here?
I’m not calling it subjective, it is subjective. Anybody sensible can tell you it is subjective. 
The burden of proof is on you for claiming how untimed = easier. And yet you have yet to prove that other then proven what you’re giving me is simply your subjective experience and trying to apply that for everybody’s experience. You can’t do that, because as i said… multiple times and yet it doesn’t sink in with you because you disallow to give it a second worth of thinking… Not everybody has the same experience as yours, and therefore, not easier for everybody.
…What are you talking about with “30 difficulties” exact? Are you refering to my comment about difficulty scaling, or are you just being hyperbolic in thinking having another mode means it’s another difficulty mode?
…And yet you still think the enrage timer/overall timer are the same thing despite the fact you’ve perfectly described how their not the same thing?..
…Again, it makes the “Waiting for CD’s Lust” complaint even sillier if it can be reset that easily.
I was referring to my suggestion of Challenging Untimed Dungeons and the length of time it should take: 1.5 to 2 hours.
IO is literally integrated into the game at this point, so doubt that will happen
The 30 levels of m+ that players are able to currently experience. Each new level adds more hp/dmg to every creature inside but the timer remains the same from +2 to +30.
That’s how the timer adds difficulty. As an example, with made up numbers:
You have 30min to clear a +2 of bobs dungeon. The hp of the 100% of trash required and the hp of the 4 bosses adds up to idk, 800k. You have 30min to deal 800k dmg.
On +15 the trash and boss hp now adds up to 1.8mil but you still only have 30min to do it.
The same can be true of raid bosses. Bobette the Angry might have 800k hp and a hard enrage (total party wipe) at 8min on normal. On heroic, it might have 1.2m hp, an additional mechanic (say stacking in groups, dropping your melee or ranged dps momentarily) yet you still have to beat the 8min enrage.
The trash in raids is 100% pure filler. Normal raiders are known to farm mythic trash for boe drops as they have very little mechanics and are just health sponges with a limited spellbook. They have had a raid with no trash but from what I remember it wasn’t everyone’s favourite raid.
The trash in m+ however is not pure filler. They gain like 4% hp/dmg every higher key level or so and benefit from the dungeons affixes. In fact, during fortified weeks trash can often easily become the hardest part of the dungeon.
Now, can untimed content be difficult? Yes. Would adding a timer to something automatically make it more difficult? Yes (unless you’re being silly and adding an obscene amount of time to an objective that very clearly doesn’t need that much time. But at that point you’d be doing silly things on purpose for some kind of gotcha)
Have they added difficult 5man content with no timer, trash requirements or affixes? Yep. One every expansion for years now. Would I like to see one included with every raid tier? Sure. But I’m thinking Blizzard can’t pump them out in that time frame. And even when we do get one, the forums get inundated with complaints that it’s too hard, it’s made for elitists gogogo m+ crowd, the rewards suck, I can’t get in and don’t want to form my own group, etc.
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Ahh, that.
Difficulty to an already difficult mob fight. Which i’l argue it’s a bit cheap to just make them damage sponge tanks by raising their HP/DMG and not just make them smarter (in that, improving their AI by better predicting, reacting and outsmarting the player), but i digress on that one.
Going by this, so is the trash in Dungeons if you really think about it.
Trial of the Crusader raid? Yeah, it’s bit boring without the trash, and that to me speaks that the trash is part of the experience, whether dungeon or raid (which by the by, there’s also a dungeon version of).
So isn’t Raid trash then. Just because it has a timer or not, doesn’t make them any different. Either it’s all filler, or it’s not.
Dungeon affixes alone are difficult deal with, and if they are put in untimed, that would make it more challenging, as it does with M+.
…Mob’s having the capacity to be difficult? Gosh, where i’ve heard that one before? I mean it’s not like i’ve been saying it all thoughout the thread… 
I’m glad we understand now that untimed content has the capacity to be difficult, as well there do exist untimed difficult content.
…So what you’re saying is adding a timer doesn’t always make it difficult on depending how you set it up then. Like if you set it up to be just enough, then it’s difficult. Much like anything really. Even untimed.
Can you name a few that isn’t not timing mythic+?..
…Unless were expecting 12 per patch, i think they will manage just fine somehow.
There is always complaints from people saying things is too hard all the time here. Mind you, the “It’s too hard”, complaint is often or not coming from a place of… well not to be trite, but not being good enough. And it doesn’t always come from “This is unbalanced, broken, or etc”. Explaining why it’s hard.
…Again, that’s common here. I mean, people blame elitist gogogo M+ crowd on the leveling speed being too fast from time to time too.
Common again. Though this has a bit more potential for legitimacy then the previous 2.
Unless they don’t have the Blizz Auth App, that’s the problem on the individual who said that.
No. I went on to explain the difference. This is why talking with you on the forums is such an exhausting experience. You slice up replies into tiny sections, ignoring the overall context and then
Go on to cut up the part where I made the distinction and argue that as another point.
Raid trash is to fill the white space. At most, they might feature a watered down boss mechanic to preview it before the actual boss.
Due to affixes, increased mechanics, placement in regards to other mobs/seasonal affixes (like wo skipping at certain points) and environmental factors (night fae urns next to tough packs, haste oozes, venthyr totems next to clumps of enemies, spears next to tough packs) the trash in m+ is something you actually have to consider and plan around (if I pull this, I can skip that. If I take this orb I can pull all these together) making it an important part of the overall encounter that the entire run is.
No, if done exactly as written here would suggest; putting in affixes without a timer does not make it harder. The baseline is mythic 0. Scaling hp and damage adds difficulty. Adding affixes increases difficulty. Putting a timer on it increases difficulty. Having them all together makes it the most difficult.
Having everything but the timer opens up the way for extreme cheese at extreme levels vof difficulty. If there’s no timer you can sheep/sap/trap mobs and take packs apart at your own pace or waiting for big cooldowns if the pay-off for being this cheesy is access to high level gear that under the current system you can’t get.
I thought here if I head you off on making an obnoxious response (Eg. “what if the timer is 24hrs?”) then it would be fine. My mistake. I should correct myself to say adding any timer is technically making it harder. Even if you add a 24hr timer to complete a +15 that still makes it too hard for those who take 24hrs and 1 minute.
Name instances of difficult 5 man content with no timer? Sure. Karazhan, mechagon, tazavesh. When they’re first released as a mega dungeon they often have some powerful trinkets or weapons at a just before heroic raid level believe. A lot of people can take 2-3 hours spread out over multiple days to clear it (and it saves like a raid where you don’t have to reclear bosses again when you return)
I’d be happy with 1 per raid tier tbh, but I for one don’t know how much effort it takes to make one. It could be the same level v of effort and time as a whole raid. It’s up to Blizzard on that one.
Nice job attacking the way i post, especially since you’re guilty of the same thing because quoting people is a normal way to conduct a conversation on the internet to avoid paraphrasing and get the context, by using the most cliche non-argument you can think of. “You’re taking it out of context”…
What is your overall context then? You’re saying M+/raids are different because one has an overall timer and the other has an enrage timer because? That’s already been established as a point you’ve been constantly putting forth and i’ve already explained why their both not the same thing. And i’ve kept that explanation short and to the point by pointing out the bare basics here.
…Yea, all of that applies to both raids and dungeons.
If Affixes doesn’t make an untimed dungeon difficult, then it doesn’t make the M+ difficult by your own logic here.
Okay. so Affixes as well scaling HP and damage adds difficulty, and therefore can be added difficulty for untimed dungeons as well.
Why you keep saying that, as if somebody said “It doesn’t increase difficulty”?.. especially atfer you told me it doesn’t always do it if the timer is lenient?..
Okay, so what? Don’t play untimed dungeons and you won’t ever see people taking longer then 2 hours. Simple as that.
Well you ended up saying “Timer doesn’t always add to the difficulty if it’s not set up correctly”… so…
You are not wrong here. Adding a timer at all even if it’s a day or 2, does introduce difficulty still in that being you have a limited time to complete something.
…Okay.
You can’t read. I’m not responding after this. You simply see the words and some where between looking and writing it completely breaks down. You’ll respond to this, cut it up and not understand it all over again. Don’t bother.
Quoting is fine, everyone quotes.
The way you quote is horrible because you snip everything up into smaller than bite size pieces, removing parts of my post where I explain my answers and give you a detailed response as you attack a fraction of my answer as if the other 80% of my answer isn’t right next to it.
Raid trash doesn’t get affixes or extra mechanics. I honestly don’t even know if it gets any harder between difficulties maybe health and dmg? But even undergeared normal raiders can kill mythic raid trash. It’s also possible to skip way more raid trash than dungeon trash because there’s no % req. You also don’t get crazy hard trash right next to an environmental advantage. And if it is for some reason difficult trash (there isn’t) you can just lust it then reset the boss to reset lust, because trash isn’t considered part of the challenge.
I very clearly broke down how each aspect increases the difficulty. I will not go over it again because you didn’t understand or see it. You have nothing here. Saying “your logic” doesn’t work as I clearly explained everything and it did not equal your made up argument.
Oh look, he cut up part of my response to remove context of the following answer so he could ‘logically counter it’ then cuts out the next part so he can counter that too!
If only wise men could learn the ways of being intellectually dishonest like that.
Yes, if mythic starts at a 1 on the scale of difficult and adding affixes takes it to 2; adding timer takes it to 3 then yes, 2 > 1. But 2 won’t give you the rewards of 3.
Best you got is mega dungeons, which is all these posts keep arguing for (untimed, difficult content with above m0 gear ((often between n/h raid))). I want more of this, I don’t know if Blizzard can pump out more than 1 per expansion. They definitely can’t pump out all 3 (m+, mega, untimed hard dungeons that aren’t mega)
I corrected myself. Adding a timer always increases the difficulty. Always. You glossing over that is just further proof that you don’t do this honestly. And people do argue that it doesn’t increase difficulty or that it’s “artificial” and not “skill based”.
Get out.
Get out you absolute troll.
Quote larger sections or full answers so you can answer in full and stop cutting out one sentence from the entire paragraph; attempt to destroy it; then cut out the next sentence that gives you the answer and attack that as well.
Your posts are full of logical fallacies, lies, misquotes and trickery trying to “logically pwn” people by being dishonest.
Says the person who thinks the standard posting style that everybody else uses including yourself is “taking out of context”. It’s quite embarrassing that this is often tried in leu of civil dialog. (Which, by the by, nice implication that i’m somehow forcing you when you just simply chose to not respond. By all means, stop if you dislike it)
If you have an actual problem with me not getting the context, then you would have no problem with me telling me what context am i suppose to get.
Well since you devolved to just attacking how i post instead of actually discussing with me, i have a feeling i’m not going to be missing much of actual arguments then.
It just sounds like to me you’re upset that i’ve disagreed with you which is why you’re just attacking me for how i (which is the same as yours) post. Even if you’re referring to this one quote here and using it as a basis to attack my posting style…
First off, you don’t need to complete the quote in order to communicate a thought. It’s not illegal to do it on the forums. I shouldn’t have to explain this to an adult here. And Considering this is written, (well typed) to assume i didn’t read it because i “cut it up” is silly since it’s possible to read it while typing, or beforehand or anywhere in between. It’s a thing that normal people do while quoting, typing their answer while reading. Human’s can multi-task, it’s amazing. And i say all this where you depressingly demonstrate your lack of ability to understand why i use this posting style and while you’re being hypocritical in this situation.
Second, even if i read the entire thing, quote it all and however, my answers would be the same regardless. Which brings me to Thrid.
Thrid, going on that particular sentence you have a problem with me “not getting the overall context”, we both know that the affixes by themselves make any dungeon difficult. Taking this week’s example, it’s Sanguine, Grievous, and Encrypted. How on earth you’re going to tell me that mobs leaving behind pools that not only damage you, but heals enemies, and players suffering damage under 100% until healed, not at all difficult in untimed dungeon?.. Not entirely sure what the mobs having the relics of first ones before you get it means.
Well fair enough on the affixes. Extra Mechanics are questionable considering Mythic raids exists, but the rest still applies.
…Okay, what’s your point? That trash can’t be difficult in untimed content? you know Normal raiders don’t just walk in and blink their enemies to death on that level (hyperbolic), i mean if their going there to farm it, chances are they planned ahead on what to do, where to go and what abilities mobs do to make sure the damage taken is low. All it need to be done is the execution which is literally easier said then done.
Not to mention, this isn’t even something your average player does anyways. Were talking about the sort who isn’t a minmaxer, or meta follower.
…Again, normal player. Not MinMaxer or Meta Follower. Which is not everybody.
…Alright.
“I’m just going to use my subjective experience and make it sound objective, even though i should know better that what i find easier, isn’t easier for everybody, but i guess i love being wrong for some reason and also attacking somebody’s posting style…”…
…Again, making the “Wait for lust” thing sillier…
You forgot there was one raid that removed nearly all the trash and it was considered not that great so… apparently it is, it keeps you from getting to the boss, even a little miniboss that blocks off parts of the entrance to the boss.
By being inconsistent? That’s explaining now?
You just basically told me that ‘Affixes doesn’t make an untimed or M+ dungeon difficult’ by calling my arguments made up. And yet you expect me to think you’re saying Affixes make a dungeon difficult?
Why you must spend so much time with this non-point? If it was such a problem with you, you would’ve stopped responding after my first response.
…Alright.
Well the mega dungeon i have in mind is equal parts explorative as well challenging. Such as Blackrock Depths for instance.
Well, untimed difficulty content that can be processed like M+, only subtracted by 2 levels at most.
Fair enough.
Me pointing out your inconsistency is being dishonest now? …
Gosh, you’re pleasant. /s
So even if i sort of agree with you, that’s suddenly trolling…
Gosh, that’s not childish of you… /s
…I’m sorry, wasn’t your overall argument here is “timer adds difficulty”?.. I mean nobody has ever disagreed with you on that. You’ve been saying the timed aspect introduces a level of difficulty in that something is limited by saying it makes things difficulty.
I’m simplifying throwing in that simply being timed at all adds difficulty in a way that just adds tension. Even if it’s years, you don’t want to run out of time, so it makes you hurry up and do them. I mean First run Mage tower, Challenge mogs, AoTC mounts, World quests even.
This is nothing more but adding on to the same argument you’ve been using, and yet you’re saying that agrument’s wrong now??
I can see why you’ve chosen to stopped responding to me, because your own arguments aren’t good enough though your own inconsistencies and instead of just owning up to those mistakes and continue along with a civil debate, you’ve resorted to just attacking my character and posting style because i disagreed and/or offered my arguments.
They could add a hugely overtuned dungeon where you have to cc and strategize between pulls, and with no timer, this would promote communication and teamwork. I wouldn’t say get rid of M+ timer but maybe add one optional. This was hard mode mega dungeons but they phase out after 1 patch.
If you get stuck on M2, maybe don’t go afk for 30 minutes?
What I don’t get is why you make a wild assumption like this and think it’s even remotely accurate or true.
