/agree with Nightlynx.
Granted I didn’t play alot of SV back before they changed it but other than explosive shot it wasn’t to much different from BM or MM. I think they had slightly better traps compared to the other spec? Big whoop. Current SV is better than the old version probably. If you must play ranged, go with either BM or MM they are still completely viable options.
“If you ignore the things that were different they were the same thing!”
What a useless point. People here have outlined over and over what Survival was, how it was substantially different to MM, and why some preferred Survival as a distinct option over MM/BM, yet here you are admitting that you have minimal knowledge and experience on the matter yet still dumping your misinformed opinion into the thread. It’s maximally intellectually dishonest.
Survival was to MM what Affliction is to Destruction. They all shared common foundational elements of the class; SV and MM had a ranged weapon and a pet, Affliction and Destruction have fel magic and a pet. This extends to their aesthetics, too. However, Survival and Affliction were focused on sustained DoT damage while MM and Destruction were focused on more methodical, hard-casted burst damage. This isn’t just a mechanical thing; it extends into the thematics of each spec. Marksmanship is focused on focused sharpshooting while Survival was focused on resourcefulness and special munitions. Destruction is focused on devastating up-front fel magic assaults while Affliction is focused on curses and attrition. They are absolutely different approaches to ranged combat and people liked Survival a lot for what it offered to the class.
As for “Current SV is better than the old version”, give me a break. As already established you are in no place to be making this claim as you admit you didn’t play the old version. I could link the usual wargraphs data and the warcraftlogs parses as well as guides and videos of old but I’ve come to learn that people like you just brush all those aside and rely on vague feelings, faulty memory, and personal bias. So I’ll just remind you of a striking fact that demonstrates how far the spec has fallen. The last time Survival was ever included on a world first kill was on Method’s kill of mythic Blackhand in February of 2015. Over 5 years ago. In WoD. When it was still ranged and in a time when it was literally the most popular spec in the game. Yes, melee Survival is so functionally useless in PvE* that it has never been included in a world first kill. No, no other spec comes close to that record.
* If you want to argue that it’s better in PvP, Survival had a much, much higher representation in rated PvP the last time it was ranged. It was literally better in all forms of content.
Easy. Focus on augmented projectiles such as explosive and poisonous shots. Translate that into multidotting gameplay.
How, pray tell, would you sufficiently differentiate another stealth-based dual-wielder from Assassination Rogue?
(rhetorical question, of course, since you can just go look at how they did just that)
A sword is a sword, you only swing it one way.
See? I can throw all these nonsense reductionisms of yours right back at you.
Let’s be clear: I’m not going to demand 13 different Archer specs. I’m not going to claim you can extract as much variety out of the ranged weapon specs as you can for the melee ones.
However, I think it is utterly ridiculous to claim that there can only be one spec in the entire game that represents usage of ranged weapons. It’s clear you have an unshakable bias and contempt towards ranged weapons and people who enjoy them.
And SV and MM both used a ranged weapon in distinct ways but that arbitrarily doesn’t count for you.
Please explain to me how Affliction and Destruction, as an example, are distinct from one another in a way Survival and MM weren’t. After all, one focuses on sustained DoT damage while the other focuses on hardcasted burst, both being based on a foundation in fel magic.
Speak for yourself. It’s clear you are speaking from the perspective of someone with minimal investment in and understanding of the class.
When I played MoP (and still do, wink wink) SV and MM absolutely feel like different styles and approaches to the class. Aimed Shot doesn’t fit Survival because it’s something a patient sniper like Marksmanship would use. Explosive Shot doesn’t fit MM because it’s something a utilitarian munitions expert like SV would use. Yes, I know MM currently has Explosive Shot as a talent, and frankly it still doesn’t fit the spec.
Yawn, more of this tired-old nonsense claim. They were different specs, period. The only people who think otherwise are people who have zero investment in the class and can’t be bothered to care about ranged weapons to even the slightest extent. Yes, that includes the Legion class developers.
To this day I don’t know the difference between Arms and Fury. The difference between you and me is that I recognise that the reason for that is because I have minimal experience with the Warrior class. I don’t use my ignorance of the class as a platform to declare their DPS specs to be interchangeable and expendable and demand sweeping changes to the class completely antithetical to everything Warrior mains want from their specs.
So you want more of the things that make Survival a Warrior and less of the things that make Survival the resourceful Hunter it was always meant to be. Here’s a tip: play a Warrior instead. Or if the pet is so important to you play BM and just sit in melee pretending that you’re whacking the target with a stick instead.
I can answer for Ghorak: no, that’s not what he wants. He consistently advocates for Hunters to have 4 specs; BM, MM, melee SV and ranged SV, presumably with unique names for those two sides of SV.
Here’s my answer: if I were in charge, the most I’d compromise with melee players is having a talent option within BM that swaps out the ranged abilities for melee ones in exchange for a damage boost. I think this is the best option for everyone given:
Although if this for some reason weren’t an option I would absolutely favour having just 3 purely ranged specs and getting rid of melee for good. It has done far too much harm to the class to be worth it but most of all it has spoiled melee players rotten. You included. Here you are ardently defending the melee spec and minimising the experiences of Hunter mains who played and loved Survival before all this melee shoehorning. You claim their spec choice and therefore their playstyle preferences are expendable so don’t act offended when people do the same right back at you.
I have yet to see such people.
So because I didn’t main hunter way back when, I’m excluded to post? I didn’t see that in the rules anywhere.
Umm…reread my post bro. I did play the old version.
You’re making alot of assumptions. Link the videos; I would love to see a WoD era Survival hunter do its thing.
One of the first posts in this thread is Ghorak linking his ranged SV suggestion thread outlining exactly what people liked about ranged Survival.
You should refrain from posting about something you know nothing about.
So replace “didn’t” with “barely”. The point still stands.
PVE: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hGTt35khac
Me playing Survival in Highmaul, patch 6.0. Note the unlimited mobility and relatively low casting time. Marksmanship would be casting Aimed Shot, cleaving with Chimera Shot, and trying to get a decent uptime on Sniper Training by standing still at times. Survival had less immedaite on-demand burst but more sustained damage and better AoE.
PVP: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0sOcPLurdo
Dilly playing Survival in arena, patch 6.2. At this time Survival was one of the most highly represented specs in PvP with ~5.5% representation, about double what it had at the end of last season. Notice how it depends heavily on control, kiting, and rot damage i.e. sustained DoT. Marksmanship, on the other hand, is all about extreme range and overwhelming burst. It still had kiting and control but not to the same degree as Survival, just as Survival did not have burst damage like MM.
I’m always gonna speak my mind bro. Sure, I never played RSV up to a decent level to really get a feel for how the class worked, but does that mean I can’t post on a thread that is trying to take away MSV (a spec I actually like) for a RSV spec that I may not even like? I don’t think so.
The point is it seemed like you clearly didn’t read my post well, or are just changing words to suit your narrative. Read/post better next time. I’ll check out the videos in a bit.
Ok just watched the videos. The PVE one I wasn’t to impressed other than the fact it seems like your topping the charts while also doing fight mechanics.
I can’t really see what abilities your using due to your UI but I’ll take your word for it that it was fun.
The pvp one looks very fun (I miss Deterrance - looked so much cooler than the turtle shell thing we have now) and the knockbacks that he does on the feral druid (I think with explosive trap) flow together very well with the theme of the spec. Of course instant shots and great mobility is also great as well.
Just because there’s already ways to apply methods of using a bow, doesn’t always mean that there can’t be more means of creating different specs or talents/abilities.
We could see an archer specs about Munitions or Traps in the games as both a means of RSV and/or more Hunter identity.
You mean like how the changes to SV, going into Legion, ruined it for all those who enjoyed the DoT-focus and relying on enhanced ammunition/arrows + traps?
Anyway…
You missed this part, didn’t you? (Below)
"I would say so yes. And it can stay, tbh.
Like you said, they should add another spec instead (4th hunter spec) and problem solved."
If this is what you think in regards to old MM and RSV then I would suggest you go back and read up on their respective abilities/effects/interactions and just general mechanics.
Like has been said so many times before…
MM relied on a theme surrounding archery/sharpshooting. This was realized in the design by having abilities(and is even more so, today) that have a cast time, or in other words, taking your time to aim the weapon in order to hit that perfect spot.
The result? You got a damage model which was based on dealing large amounts of damage in a very short time-span. Otherwise known as “burst”.
If we instead look at the core of RSV from when it was still in existence, it relied mostly on attacks with a theme surrounding enhanced ammunition/arrows. This was done by the use of animal venom, poisons, along with explosives. RSV was also focusing on enhancing hunter traps beyond what the class has baseline.
The damage model? It was a much more consistent one, designed for you to keep the pressure up on certain enemies with a steady stream of ticking damage(DoTs) that ate the enemy up.
It did not rely on burst phases and such. Heck, in WoD, it didn’t even have a major CD.
So again, in short, MM and RSV when we still had both of them, were very different to one another. By the standards set at the time ofc.
If you judge them by what we have today, ofc they seem much more similar to one another.
Much of that stems from the fact that during MoP as well as WoD, the class design relied much on having talents that were shared across all specs.
Today, each spec has it’s own unique set of, fairly, distinguishing talents.
Were the specs more similar to one another compared to how specs are today? Yes. Because that’s what was intended at the time.
BUT…
If we do the same to RSV as was done to all other specs, going into Legion, it would be a whole different case altogether.
How’s so?
Check the linked concept further up this post. That’s one way it could’ve been done. It would, by today’s standards, be perfectly unique when compared to a spec like current MM(and current BM, MSV).
The difference?
The devs just did not bother with looking into what could’ve been done to RSV in order for it to fit into the modern game. They had already decided that it should be replaced with MSV.
Yep. This.
As for names…if we are to follow the original naming-theme of the class, we could have something like this:
Beast Mastery - a playstyle focused on pets/beasts(for the most).
Marksmanship - a playstyle focused on archery/sharpshooting.
Survival - a playstyle focused on…a form of survival, I guess(MSV).
Munitions - (the old RSV), a playstyle focused on enhancing ammunition/arrows and Traps.
What would this give us, when looked at as an entire class?
A focus on bestial empowerment, sharpshooting, melee combat and coordination with pets, along with the ammunition and traps.
In other words, every aspect that is the class known as the Hunter of today(and the past).
You’re not. Obviously.
But if you’re going to criticize a much liked playstyle, at least bother to learn what it was all about, along with WHY so many liked it.
That was the idea behind it.
A large part of this thread(including the OP) is about bringing RSV back without removing or even altering existing specs.
@Farstrider
Yeah, I really don’t care for MSV but it’s not like I’m saying it needs to be gone.
Really all that I am saying is, we need another spec that focuses on ranged damage like MM.
And whether they achieve this by adding a 4th spec to hunter or making an entirely new ranger class, I would be happy with either.
The same topic comes up over and over again, most of the time by the same people that just want to see ranged survival come back which is fine. But I really wish people would understand when they’re asking for any sort of class changes that we rarely get crap from the devs in that area to begin with, I don’t think any of you could genuinely tell me that bm has gotten a lot of good work done in god knows how long. Hell I could say that people that usually post these topics don’t even really care for bm all that much with how much I see people saying that they wish this change happened to that spec.
Regardless though it’s whatever, I do hope you all get what you want but that would also require the devs to actually put out consistent changes and that’s seemingly never going to happen.
@Dorrell
I’ve never been a fan of BM because it’s a pet spec. When 80 pct of the damage is being done by the pet, why even shoot arrows or bullets at the enemy.
That being said, I do respect BM players and that they want things to be the same. Just imagine if BM was the spec to become melee though and how upset the BM players would be. This is how us SV players feel.
So me saying that I wish that they made BM melee is more or less me wishing that SV wasn’t the spec that was changed. But really I think that none of the specs should have became melee.
I get that, I was just saying that I’ve seen the same thoughts about pushing the melee change onto bm mirrored quite a few times. Hell I’m not even really saying it’s a bad idea or that I couldn’t learn to love it, but just that it kills the argument people want to make when speaking about how melee survival is so bad in their opinions.
But yeah again personally I’d like for everyone to get what they want here since it makes no difference to me, it’s just that it also requires the devs to actually do something.
@Dorrell
The solution seems to be add a 4th spec for old ranged SV fans to Hunter, or create two different classes, one focusing on MM and RSV and the other on BM / MSV.
It sure is.
Exactly.
Beeples is a bully of a troll and ghorak is following close behind at this point.
Until they learn how to act they will continue to go without and do nothing but hurt the cause for RSV to make a comeback. Periodt.
Sit back and watch suffer, I say. 
I hardly criticized. I merely said MSV is probably better than RSV. If you would have read a few posts above you would have seen that Bepples did change my opinion on RSV somewhat, although it still did look alot like BM if I’m being honest. It looked like a very mobile ranged spec with someone running around using Cobra Shot and throwing a few dots in there. I’m not saying it wasn’t fun, but I can see why the devs opted to change the spec in the first place.
@Farstrider
“I merely said MSV is probably better than RSV.”
This is like saying an apple is better than an orange. That’s just your opinion.
Anyways, does anyone here want to argue against adding back RSV in some form or another, while still keeping MSV?
Heck, to me it doesn’t even need to be the same old RSV, just something besides MM that also focuses on ranged damage.
Problem is they took away the orange - you can no longer get them. Only apples. And when oranges were avalible they were much better sellers. And they added the apple to a group that focuses on citrus fruit. Many people looking for citrus fruit will not be happy with an apple.
That is not to say that there are not those who like apples. Just that they should not be wedged in with the citrus fruits, and oranges should not be taken away from those who liked them.
Sorry but if they do go to the effort of adding a 4th spec for hunters I sure as hell dont want to see another dps spec. No class needs 3 dps specs, much less 4. Male it a tank and you’ve got a deal.
All i canspeak for myself not others and others cant speak for me. Rsv was my most favorite spec from mid bc to half way through wod. I didnt change specs or classes cause i was bored. I changed cause what i enjoyed was rippedaway. Neither other 2 specs come close to what rsv was, not by long shot…no pun intended. Regardless to how many enjoy the new survival isnt issue. Its those who lost there enjoyment in class or game. Again im only speaking for myself cause i cant put words in for others.