Somehow ‘they also fed people to sharks’ didn’t really fit into the summary. Or about their possessions being seized.
And the clear incorrect conflation of guilt to all Sunreavers. The idea many even got a chance to leave.
Have to really smudge a lot of stuff to even try to stand by it.
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There is some part of the senario where they do stop a sunreaver from getting his stuff at the bank and talk about taking it to be fair though that was alleria not jaina.
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Trusting all of the Horde, or just the handful of members she knows aren’t psychotic? I still want to hold out room for optimism for how she will progress.
She literally spends the entire scenario and cinematic no more than ten feet away at any given time from the guy who orchestrated the entire War of Thorns.
(Then after she ports back, has the audacity to tell Genn that there still must be justice for Teldrassil.)
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Yeah would nice if she showed some indiffrence to saurfang but only the horde know his involvment as the planner i think. So to jaina she might be in her mind with two friends (thrall abd baine) and a rebel.
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Does it matter? It still leaves her wide open to a betrayal from a faction she should know full well she can’t trust. She trusted the Horde in Dalaran and they used that trust to smuggle weapons through neutral territory. A few good people(which is debatable in itself cough Saurfang) don’t make up for the Horde being scum.
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I was with you until this point. The Suicide troops were an unnecessary waste of valuable troops, and hinging everything on a short range detonator just means the alliance commanders were mouth-breathing idiots who only won due to luck. Sinking the Zandalari ships in the harbor would have been more beneficial in the long run.
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They agreed to a peace treaty with the Horde which allowed the Horde their territory in Ashenvale.
I could practically start from her inception in the series. From day one she’s been portrayed as someone good in every situation. Half the Horde cast get constantly trashed for their failings, bad decisions, or evilness, while Jaina can just do anything for any reason and everybody acts like she did the right things.
Incursion and attack are not perfect synonyms. An attack generally indicates something backed by malice and directed at a specific target, while an incursion is more neutral and doesn’t suggest violence, or even invasion, by necessity. For example, if we were to say that Horde forces incurred on Ashenvale, at it’s root, that really only means they’ve entered the area. Given the area was contested and the Horde already had territory there, that doesn’t mean an incursion equals an attack. Most of the Horde’s bases in Ashenvale aren’t adjacent to each other, meaning that unless the treaty directly disallowed travel to and from these bases, it must have been legally possible to send forces to them.
Specifically, it says that said incursions enraged the Alliance. Considering the statement is an explanation of their feelings, the use of the word incursion could also merely be a reflection of how they perceived things.
More importantly though, the very next sentence says that despite Garrosh’s actions in sending those forces to Ashenvale, the factions weren’t yet at war. It also never says that violence took place. Meaning, that even if you read the situation in the worst way possible, it is still true that these events did not start the war.
Wasn’t the entire point of bringing it up to posit that that was the case?
Do you know what the word “most” means? Here’s a hint: It’s not a synonym for “all”.
In fact, that line explicitly confirms that there were parts of Ashenvale that was not considered Night Elven territory. Bringing that up is evidence against the idea that any Horde entry to the forest constituted an attack on the Night Elves.
So he entered a forest and chopped some trees. The above line confirms that Garrosh taking resources in Ashenvale doesn’t mean he imposed upon the Night Elves in any direct way.
I didn’t say that. I just said that her motivations for turning around on Jaina were weak and not backed by anything that intrinsically changed the reality of what happened. It was also far too fast, their reconciliation was practically instant.
By all appearances, that was something she did personally. The wards were her doing, not the Kirin Tor’s as a whole. I do think it’s true that Dalaran’s neutrality following Theramore was practically a sham, but in that case her idea of maintaining the façade of it, and then losing it when someone abused it in the other direction, was insane.
There’s no confusion, only frustration that so many people ignore things that they are directly told in the first five minutes of starting the game.
First off, Chronicles doesn’t have a different explanation at all. Ultimately it’s extremely vague about the entire situation and avoids directly saying how or when the war started.
Your interpretation of what it says, incorrect as it is, is also worse than what we actually have. The Twilight’s Hammer initiating the conflict directly ties into the main plot of the expansion. The first strike coming not at the hands of the aggressive warmonger Garrosh, but instead from the peace-over-everything Jaina, is an ironic subversion (And an actual good one at that), of the two character’s perceived roles in the story and of player expectations.
If this situation was actually acknowledged in the lore rather than ignored, both characters would gain a huge amount of depth. It’s just insulting that they’ve thrown away their opportunities for this so many times.
In lieu of evidence that she did something, why should I assume that she did something? You’re basically telling me to make up a headcanon for why she couldn’t save Varian and accept that as fact.
I’d say the consequences from Stratholme were far more dire than the Bell. In fact, the Bell did nothing, and never even displayed the potential to be weaponized. All of Garrosh’s attempts were complete failures.
Actually, Jaina’s purge was way less justified than Arthas’ really. More indiscriminate too.
No, it isn’t. Characters in the game being quiet on an issue isn’t in any way a reason for taking a position on the topic.
Like that’s a resolution. If Sylvanas lives, will you also be content that she has to live with the bad things she’s done?
There was no peace treaty after Wrath that allowed the Horde territory in Ashenvale. Hell, Garrosh’s starting the war was exactly because the Night Elves cut off trade of their lumber to Orgrimmar because of the Wrathgate.
If the trees were in an area that was the Horde’s they wouldn’t have to be taken by force. That is direct evidence of invasion of Night Elf lands.
Even the official description of Warsong Gulch describe it as the Horde encroaching on Night Elf land:
- The gleaming purple-and-emerald forests of Ashenvale are more than just pleasant woodland. To the Warsong orcs who name themselves Outriders, they’re a prize cache of building planks; to the night-elven Silverwing Sentinels, they’re home. Where the turned soil and tree stumps surrounding Horde lumber mills start to encroach on Ashenvale’s timberlands, these two factions clash.
Each group recruits heroes from far and wide – the Horde to batter back the defenders and clear the forests, and the Alliance to shatter the aggressors and stop the disappearance of their precious land.
Whoever holds their defeated foes’ banner will show all who look upon the forest that their claim is the strongest – and dictate the future of one of the most important, ancestral lands of the Kaldorei.
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Yes, there was. Because there was a peace treaty after Wrath, and the Horde kept it’s territory in Ashenvale. The treaty didn’t kick them out, they retained what they had.
The Night Elves cut trade during Thrall’s rule. It stands to reason that even if he had the technical capability to harvest resources from Horde or unclaimed land in Ashenvale, he would not do it, because the Night Elves would naturally be vehemently opposed to such actions for ideological reasons, meaning that in the long term it would hurt their chances for mutual cooperation.
Garrosh would obviously not care, and just harvest away.
Not necessarily. Ignoring that an operation of such a scale would naturally need heavy backing and military support - Given that almost all Horde state affairs are run by the military - There’s still the issue that Ashenvale is a dangerous territory. There are many threats abound, one of which being the Night Elves themselves. Remember, the Night Elves once nearly killed Grom and the Warsong clan for harvesting in the forest, so from Garrosh’s perspective he would need to back the lumber efforts with force in order to ensure that they weren’t disrupted or destroyed by Night Elven attack.
That was vanilla, Cata was Cata. Two different time periods, circumstances change.
There was a peace treaty during the comics as well, and the Horde were still being kicked out of Ashenvale in the comic as well. There is no evidence of the Horde gaining new rights to Ashenvale after Wrath. If anything, you yourself described the Horde losing more rights to Ashenvale after Wrath.
This even further implicates that the Horde had no holding over the land or the trees, as such, invasion.
You of all people are claiming this now?
Also, that guide I quote from was added back in 2013, well after Cataclysm:
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You should accept the fact no one on the Alliance(or even Horde) has said Jaina should be blamed for not doing anything.
It was a failure because we on the Alliance side managed to stop it.
Well we will have to wait and see what happens to Sylvanas wont we. You can keep hoping Jaina ends up dead(and maybe hope Sylvanas managed to wiggle out of BfA alive/undead) and I can keep hoping Jaina actually survives/thrives and Sylvanas gets her just deserts.
Why? Because you said so? The fact is the death if Varian is squarely laid on the feet of the Horde. No one once bothered to blame Jaina and I dont see why you should do any differently.
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Having to live with the bad things you have done tends to imply remorse i dont see sylvanas feeling remorse about what she has done. Sylvanas is a rather amoral character so she has no morals to violate or things to feel bad about except if they dont work out and evrn then thats just because of time loss.
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Incursion has an overwhelming strong use that implies violence or invasion. It is an extremely connected association. And this is especially true given the context. That Garrosh is ‘forceful taking’ what he didn’t want to trade/negotiate with the Alliance. And in context to him doing it despite the Night Elves owning most of Ashenvale. That it upset the Alliance and threatened war. Again, I cannot see this as more than disingenuous assertion or not understanding the common use of incursion. You’re claiming a technicality when the use is not only clear based on context/typical parlance, Amadis and Zerde concur on how this term is used.
All this being funny considering you are doing what you seemed to have issue with before.
If you want to make that case, then it would have specified ‘perceived incursions’. Instead it calls them for what they are. Doesn’t fit with the way the book is written.
No, because the corroborating aspects such as Scrolls of Lore and (supposedly) Tides of War being that Theramore was still in reaction to him going at the Night Elves.
That it was a retcon? No. Etheldad seemed to bring it up just to say you were wrong about the fact those killed they weren’t resisting.
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Make Alliance characters work with Aethas for three expansions straight while he whinges about how bad the Purge was and how much he hates the Alliance, followed by unsuccessfully attempting to kill him as the end-boss of a raid tier, followed immediately afterwards by having to work with him again
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Done you sir have a deal
I don’t think Jaina doesn’t deserve all of the hatred within the WoW Community on the Horde side.
In fact I remembered a long time ago that Jaina and Thrall were both loved until time came within the Community where everyone and their uncle hates them both.
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I personally think Jaina in BfA fixed the problems she had in WoD and Legion. It made no sense for her to go “REEEEEEEE! ALL HORDE ARE EVIL!” in WoD after she made her peace with Vol’jin in War Crimes. I mean, it could stem from the fact that the Kirin Tor were still with the Alliance at the time, but still didn’t make sense.
Jaina’s been the best part of BfA for me, and it’s nice for her to finally get some proper development. She knows she made mistakes, and she knows she needs to make amends. It’s why she didn’t fight back when her own mother imprisoned her. It’s even brought up in her cutscene at the end of her questline. (Also, I demand a proper CG for this of the quality you’ve done for the Saurfang stuff.)
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The peace treaty in the comics came about after the battles in Ashenvale though? Just because both things happened in the comics, that doesn’t mean the prior situation retroactively runs concurrently with the later situation.
We have the Horde with territory in Ashenvale while a peace treaty was in effect, and we have the statement that the Night Elves did not own all of Ashenvale. Whether you want to call that “gaining new rights”, or simply the defacto acceptance of them holding that territory, it’s clearly the case that the Horde wasn’t getting “kicked out” at that time.
How? Again, that was then, this is now. The Night Elves hadn’t established a peace with the Horde while they were still settled there, at that time.
Yes, because we have clear evidence of changes. It’s not like you, who claims a situation has changed despite there being no evidence of it. That is why my statements in both cases are completely correct and yours are not, because I’m basing my arguments on the information we have available, while you aren’t. The existence of a treaty between the Night Elves and the Horde, while the Horde still held that territory, shows that the Night Elves had effectively ceded those holdings to the Horde.
You might say that they didn’t intend for that to be the case in perpetuity, but for the purposes of talking about this specific situation and the peace established in this time period, that’s irrelevant.
A blurb talking about an old battleground doesn’t change the context of when the battleground takes place. If a modern book is written detailing the events of the Napoleonic wars, that doesn’t suddenly mean Napoleon himself has risen from the grave and the conflict is occurring at the time period in which it’s being written about. Do you actually think that you’re making a feasible argument here?
That’s not addressing my point. Us not being told that anybody blames Jaina not only doesn’t prove that nobody blames her, it’s completely irrelevant as to how we consider the situation.
It was a failure before the Alliance even showed up. Everyone Garrosh tried to empower with the Bell just ended up going crazy and being uncontrollable. And the Bell was still FAR less of a threat than Stratholme, even if it could be weaponized. Meaning Jaina’s actions had even less justification than Arthas’.
Oh, don’t give me that. I know if she lives and just somehow feels guilty about everything, you’ll be the first person saying that’s not a real conclusion at all and that she didn’t pay for what she’d done.
Because characters in the story aren’t omnipotent and them not giving an opinion on something is completely meaningless to how players interpret an event? Nobody blames Sylvanas for blight-bombing her own troops at Lordaeron either, does that mean everyone who calls that a betrayal is wrong?
Again, no. I’ve already explained to you why every one of those points isn’t true by necessity. Incursion isn’t a perfect synonym for attack or invasion and is inherently a lesser, more neutral term than either of them. Garrosh’s actions would still be forceful and incendiary even if he didn’t break any part of the treaty or attack the Night Elves. The Night Elves didn’t own all of Ashenvale, so Garrosh sending forces there doesn’t constitute an attack. And chronicles specifically says that even after Garrosh did this, there wasn’t yet war, only an increase in tensions.
The truth is, nowhere in chronicle does it say that Garrosh broke the treaty, attacked, and started the war. That’s merely your interpretation, but the wording is never used in a way that confirms that to be the case. To the contrary, tne statements about the Night Elves not owning all of Ashenvale and the war not yet starting despite Garrosh’s actions go against that interpretation and directly allow for it to be untrue.
The book does not provide the evidence you say it does. You may insist saying that is disingenuous, but I’m only pointing out that your claim is weak.
No, it wouldn’t. The entire sentence is framed as an explanation of the Alliance’s feelings. It’s unnecessary to add the word perceived. Actually, there are many points in the books where, when talking about something in the light of what a character or group thinks, it treats their ideas or interpretations as objective fact, without preface or clarification that it’s merely an opinion. Instead, it relies on the reader knowing the context of what’s being talked about, and from which perspective the segment is coming from.
Except that’s wrong. First off, the post from SoL you’re referencing only says that the Theramore invasion happened “Because Garrosh wants to defeat the night elves and conquer the whole of Kalimdor under the banner of the Horde. So the humans of Theramore sent their army and tried to establish a military line between the night elf territory and Theramore. But it seems the result is not what they expected.”
Pay attention to the specifics of it. It never says that Garrosh attacked, it says that the invasion of the Barrens was prompted by the Alliance’s belief of what Garrosh wanted. And certainly, there were many reasons to judge his greater intents, but the fact remains that Theramore attacked on the basis of suspicion, not out of a reaction to an attack from Garrosh himself.
And as far as ToW goes, it explicitly says that Theramore invaded the Barrens on the basis of a false belief that the Horde was preparing to attack them.
The Alliance, expanding from Northwatch Hold under false information that the tauren were planning an attack, had razed Camp Taurajo.
But that’s exactly the point, because we clearly see people killed who don’t resist.
I have made peace with the fact Sylvanas has a 50% of getting a Kerrigan/Illidan treatment. But as long as she is finally gone I’ll take some comfort in it.
Anduin calls her out on it. Just because the rest of the Horde are sniviling Sycophants doesnt mean others do not see Sylvanas for what she is.
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